OK, if you're gonna flame me, please use the "Flame MWP" Thread - http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=120135

For the rest of you, I'm hoping I can actually share this video WITHOUT the flames.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFqoUwJGjkE

It's a "false spawn" tentatively on the basis that I couldn't find any eggs to confirm an actual spawn. This has been a project for 6 months now...and tonight, it finally paid off. And yes, for the record, I did lose 3 filefish in the process of obtaining the 4 I currently have (2 more females are in a QT tank and have been on hand for about 5+ months).

It seems that success with this species relies on one huge thing - how it was treated before it ever got to you. I've had much better success with fish from one source vs. another, but also, much like most Mandarins, these arrive at the LFS in horrible shape long before you ever get to work with them!

I'm working on mixing things up - I currently have 4 more on order from Blue Zoo Aquatics and one of the long-term females has bee recently sold and is being picked up Tuesday (ad was in the livestock selling forum). The ultimate goal for me is to have 2 pairs on hand...if I 'secure' a trio I might keep that, but any more than that which do make it will have to find new homes

I've been keeping an ongoing project log over on MOFIB ( http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1922 ) but I'm happy to address any questions folks have here!

FWIW,

Matt

Take a look at his NR.com thread, and you'll see bonfires.

Oh, I totally missed that link. Well, at least it's organized flaming. A lot of the stuff he's doing is controversial now that I examine things besides the filefish. I officially retract my previous comments and opinions on these matters - I'm going to stay out of this one.

Controversial? Honestly, it's only controversial in the viewpoint of someone who has a closed mind and cannot fathom that the published "facts" aren't necessarily absolutes. The simple fact is that I don't follow the "established rules", but it's to the point though where it seems like I have a completely different set of "rules" to go by.

Case in point: 4 Orangespotted Filefish, apparently 'obligatory' coralivores, thought of as "cut flowers", living to 5-6 months to date, feeding on ANYTYHING, and now starting to spawn, all in a nanocube (and the other 2 females in a basically bare 10 gallon QT tank!). I think that's success, and the only reason it's scandelous when someone who's read "no one should attempt these fish" takes that to heart but also condemns anyone else for thinking otherwise...

I'm not trying to set an example for the new hobbyists, let me be clear. Nor am I saying everyone should run out and purchase a bunch of Orange Spotted Filefish! However, the fact remains that I also have spawning dragonettes (mutliple pairs in multiple tanks) and dwarf angels as well as clowns and gobies and cardinals and all sorts of other stuff all in 24 gallon nanocubes should be proof that I'm simply having success in a different way than you might expect most hobbyists to be successful. I have had more than my fair share of failures too, but I don't hide them, because we all can learn from them.

15 years ago, the thought of any two Centropyge angelfish in a tank, any size, was considered negligent. Why? Because someone else told us it couldn't work, and the weaker fish would be killed. Now that we know more about their social structures and reproductive habits, maintaining pairs and harems in a hobbyist's aquarium is becoming almost "common". Having seen changes like this happen in our hobby, I find myself far more asking "how can it work" and less of "why won't it work".

FWIW,

Matt

One other "BTW" - I think it's fair to say that so much of what makes some difficult fish even more difficult is the conditions under which they are available to us. That is to say, long before a mandarin or a filefish makes it to your LFS, the care that someone provides to the fish may be what truly determines success or failure. The fact is that I've NEVER seen a FAT, Healthy Dragonette or Filefish (of most any common species) at the LFS...heck, it probably arrived at the LFS in that condition. I cannot hold my own care solely responsible for the death of a fish that is purchased in some state of starvation (which probably all Dragonettes and Oxymonacanthus are in when you get them. Truth is though, I've never lost a dragonette to starvation...the majority have been jumpers during spawning rises.).

I therefore think that where I might have succeeded many others could fail if the fish are in much worse condition before they get to the hobbyist. Better care (and possibly simply quicker handling) might make all the difference!

mwp, whatcha feed the filefish? I kept one for about a year before a intake accident and all it ever ate, that I saw, was xenia.

They're coral feeders (apparently acropora polyps) in the wild.

http://www.um.u-tokyo.ac.jp/publish_db/Bul...25/no25007.html

I haven't seen your other thread but,
Unrelated question

Do you raise banggai cardinals?
If so how many do you raise at a time?

The filefish I have are now eating ANYTHING they can fit into their mouths. In a nutshell, feeding started by offering SPS frags and SPS skeletons pasted with Ocean Nutrition's Dwarf Angel diet and Rod's Food. Eventually Mysis or Brine would be accepted...pellets generally came later...but they even eat FLAKE. One of the better staple foods for them is the Marine Gro (by Red Sea) Small Granules...they're small enough to be "inhaled' as is. They'll take larger "small' pellets like Ocean Nutrition Formula 1 and 2, but the pellets have to soften up first (they slowly nibble away at them). The flake food was a shock....and something I did on a whim to feed the clownfish in the QT tank. Once they learned, they relish live blackworms as a treat. Live Brine was suprisingly the one food that didn't generate much of a feeding response early on, although now I expect that they would take it if offered.

Good luck. See you next year.

Banggais have been a never ending headache...they just refuse to hold to term in the smaller tanks. I've managed to raise only once batch successfully via artificial incubation...yeilded 10 saleable offspring.

Interesting I hope it works out in my tank its only A 20L , but the banggai pair are going to the only fish.

This may help:
http://fc.lovett.org/~ddalke/marine_projec...k_78/Index.html

If you want, I can pm you an article about breeding fish which appeared in the 2002 Marine Fish and Reef USA annual magazine.

That would be awesome I'm trying to get as much info on breeding them as I can.

Thanks

Here's a recap we've put together which has all sorts of additional info on Bangaii Breeding:

http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1851

Thanks, Marinebreeder has so much info on breeding I've been reading through it a lot.

I realize that, I did say I had one for a year.





Thanks, good idea about pasting foods on sps frags and skeletons.

edit- Did you put them in isolation during this process? If not how did you keep the other fish away?

Tagging along.

Actually, I didn't have them in isolation, although the NEW group I just got will be in a tank by itself.

Part of the key when I didn't isolate was there still wasn't much competition. The Fire Clowns in the tank don't really eat off the substrate. Ditto for the dottybacks. The Dragonettes in the tank pick, but really aren't interested in gel-diets so much, so pretty much the food just stayed put until they ate it or the scavengers in the tank go to it.

FWIW,

Matt

Thanks!

Just read through the thread. So basically you haven't managed anything yet except killing some and having to buy more? You claimed you were breeding them - I see no evidence of success...

Pictures or it didn't happen!

I've flammed you in the past but I'm interested enough to listen. Tagging along.

Steve


Just so we are clear I still don't agree with any of it, but I'm listening.

Steve

What don't you agree with? All I've posted here is a video of two filefish that I've had on hand for over 5 months that went through all the motions of spawning. It's not an opinion to agree or disagree with..it's a reporting of FACT!

Let me be clear, there's a reason I don't post here much anymore and it's because of ignorant comments like L34NN3's above (which I just decided to report).

And, for the record, I posted here for the folks that might actually have an open mind and be interested in the successes AND failures I've had. For me, having courtship and an attempted spawnins is PHENOMENAL success.

So, I don't give a shhhhhhh about anyone's opinions as to the morality or ethics of how I keep my aquariums. WHY? I could list things on and on, but let me just say this. The ONLY known report of Oxymonacanthus longirostris spawning in an aquairum was in 1994 in a 10 gallon aquarium. So, for anyone who thinks I'm somehow in the wrong, let me get one thing crystal - Until you are keeping this multiple specimens of species alive, having trained them onto EVERY FOOD you can offer them, and you too have a pair courting and mating (success or failure, it's still mating behavior), keep your lame uninformed and ignorant opinions to yourself.

See just when I was starting to warm up to the idea of what you are trying to do, you went and opened your mouth. When you have to resort to name calling then you become what you are trying to disuade. I would try and keep that quote out of the science journals when you publish your thesis. Do I think what you are doing is interesting? Yes, and is why I'm tagging along. Do I have to agree with the way you are doing it? Nope. Either way I'm not calling you names.

Steve

Badger molesting pygmy orge.

Man Kraylen I don't think there is a day that goes by that you don't make me LMFAO. I wish more people got your humor.

Man its always hit or miss, you either laugh or punch your monitor because your lancome is stinging your eyeballs.

Have Harlequin Filefish ever been bred and raised to metamorphisis?

Are they like most fish larvae and eat rotifers and such or is it really little known about these fish?

Relax bro, no one's flamed you. There hasn't been a single flame in this thread. Flame = "you moron failure you'' never get those fish to spawn and if you ever do it's because your mother fertilized them personally..."

You're the guy who got banned from RC right? Who was trying to spawn the mandarins? I read like 30 pages of that thread and then boom all gone. You'll notice that we're not quite so restrictive here...that naturally means that more criticism is allowed too.

BTW if you find Leanne's post flame-ish, I invite you to check out her early posts...one of her first threads was a rant on how mean we are here at NR

If you have confidence in what you're doing (and it seems that you do) then by all means we're interested in how it's going. If you feel any of the criticism in this thread is over the top of unacceptable, well then I'm sorry that NR and you will probably never get along

A question for those of you who have issues with MWP's "methods..." what exactly is it you disagree with? This is an honest question. I haven't read much of this filefish thread.

i find nothing wrong with his methods. he is trying to successfully breed this fish. if he happens to succeed, then other breeders will be encouraged to the point where they attempt it too. Thus, the rise of tank-raised orange spotted file-fish will come, and they will be more hardy just like any other tank-raised fish. also, they will more readily accept foods in a new environment. just like all fish breeding, it is better for the fish in the wild that are collected and usually end in their demise. What M.Pederson caught on video was a huge leap for the breeding of these fish. in just 1 minute and 28 seconds, these fish went from unkeepable in captivity to breedable in captivity. just because he lost 3 fish in the process doesnt mean he should be flamed. The fish would have died anyways as they were already in captivity plus he got them in bad shape.

Congrats on the big step MWP. keep on going and you will be rewarded with a successful spawn.

There should never be flames on someone who is trying to expand the fish breeding hobby. Captive bred fish live longer and wild caught numbers will start to drop. this means more fish in the ocean for you to enjoy. i doubt any of you people are going to flame the guy in china who finally successfully bred BLUE TANGS in captivity.

Are you talking about Fishnemo?

I think he said something about breeding blue tangs

... no and its not a joke. the shipment just came in from china to socal. captive bred blue tang. i take fish breeding seriously myself, which is why i usually buy fish in pairs.

Oh come on is all you can do attack? I took the time to read through 13 pages of not very much on your thread. Sorry it didn't impress me. I am not in awe of someone who appears to just be trying to prove a point. In both of your threads we are yet to see any proof of raising the fry. I asked you to show pictures - "pictures or it didn't happen" is a phrase used on this site quite a bit. Not meant in any sort of meanness. I didn't flame you I simply stated that I didn;t see sucess; which I didn't. And you report me and call me ignorant? For what reason exactly? Because you didn't like my opinion? Well don't ram your's down our throats and we wont do the same.

Oh by the way - your posts come across as very argumentative (even your initial post). Are you really surprised you get the reaction you do? You're seem a bit like the kid at school that no-one liked. I feel sorry for you.

Now go and report that...

but let's not bicker.

I bet you can't make them eat an entire potatoe.

This is the root of the problem (see below). 19 fish in a 24 gallon tank. This is what everyone doesn't agree with. We don't have a problem with him breeding. Why I'm interested is to know what makes these fish want to spawn in these conditions? This is why I'm tagging. If he has found the holy grail I wanna know about and see supporting documentation.

L34NN3, i respect you, but you have to show MPederson some respect for who he is. he is a successful breeder and you should really give him the benefit of the doubt that he knows what he's doing and that he did not go into this venture blindly. The video that he showed was a spawning, but there was no eggs, thus he has no fry obviously. If you had tried keeping filefish before, i think you would see success in what he did. He showed that these fish are possible to keep and that they are breedable in captivity, even in a tiny tank.

ANYWHO... M. Pederson is just used to the respect he gets on MOFIB he is actually a great guy once you do your research and find out who he is.

So, let's clear up the thread and just watch to see more results come from MWP.

I was kidding

I think marine fish breeding is awesome too I'm putting together a rearing station for the Banggai Cardinal Fry I'm expecting.

Look, once a year or so mwp comes along and tells us all of his newest miracle tank, people bicker and argue, then he leaves and we don't see him till the following year with his new astounding project. Such is life.

So don't bicker, don't pass judgement, don't harangue him like before. Just sit back and wait for the science. If it comes, swell. If not, meh, wait till next year.

That is all.

Geez...where to begin. Why do I leave and take 1 year hiatuses from Nano-Reef?? Well, the bickering and arguing for starters. From my standpoint, the biggest problem with posting things on Nano-Reef is that too many inexperienced people open up their big mouths to parrot the admonishments they've been given (specifically BECAUSE they're beginners and beginners probably shoudn't try certain things). I simply don't need a bunch of people who've been keeping a tank for a year telling me that I am irresponsible or neglegient and should be condemmed for doing what I'm doing. I know it sounds arrogant, but the second I posted a video of Oxymonacanthus longirostris mating in one of my 24 gallon tanks, that simple fact trumps whatever criticisms anyone here might have on the subject.

So everyone starts out having MY respect, but I personally lose it quickly for those who attack and accuse that which they do not know or understand, ESPECIALLY those who only get PART of the story and don't bother to do their homework. As I posted originally, I'm willing to talk about the mating, the fish, and answer any questions folks might have.

So yes, if I didn't already post it here, at the time of the first mating, I had purchased a total of 7 Oxymonacanthus longirostris, and 4 have lived to the 5-6 month point (to date). The three losses were well documented in my thread on MOFIB...1 was virtually instant (2 days post purchase). The 2nd was a 9 day loss (again in pretty bad shape when I got it), and the last one lasted about 2 weeks and was a fish I thought might make it, and I do partially blame 3 days I was out of town, unable to check on the fish daily.

If a person walks into a hospital in critical condition and dies from this condition, did the doctor "KILL" the patient? The bottom line on these fish, and I'll say it again, if you buy a fish that is already starving, and is likely emaciated, having it fail to feed and die is NOT YOUR FAULT. The blame on these and other similar fish in my opinion lies in the chain of custody long before it ever arrives at your door. Heck, this is still a fish which might be collected with cyanide. Sure, you can argue that your purchase is supporting more imports of that species...and that is PROBABLY correct. However, that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about a first mating between my male and female Longnosed Filefish. I am frankly not interested in the ethics or debate around my posession of this "do not buy" speices because MY demand for these fish is specifically to experiment and share the results, much of which proves that these are NOT simply cut flowers that are DOOMED from the get go. I think Freshwater Discus were thought of that way at one point...

For those of you looking for "the success" - again, having 4 Oxymonacanthus live to the 5-6 month mark is SUCCESS in itself. The fact that they're FAT is even better. The fact that they don't get any ACROPORA to feed on - that's even more unique...even the open-minded critics feared that a lack of Acropora would result in malnutrition. Well, MALNOURISHED FISH as a general rule are NOT interested in MATING. Courtship has been slowly progressing for weeks, but frankly no one KNOWS what courtship might look like in the aquarium because no one else that I'm aware of is keeping a male female pair of these in a tank together and sharing their experiences. But we now know, thorugh the act of a presumed MATING (the video I posted..you'll see it happen right at the start) that the behavior IS courtship / mated related.


hcsceo - My response to you was in the first paragraph only. Thank you for clarifying, your answer is 2 paragraphs below.

L34NN3...post like yours are why I don't often bother posting here anymore. And I posted a link to that thread specifically for folks like you - flame me over there, I've tried but there's no point to address 90% of the posts on that thread. That old post? I knew the moment I posted that, regardless of how I posted, I was getting flammed. I didn't troll for it, I simply knew it was coming the moment I thought "Hmm, should I post about keeping 3 Centropyge argi together in a 24 gallon tank...what will the folks at Nano-Reef have to say about that...". The 19 fish are the icing on that cake So meanwhile, when something truly special happens, like courtship and a mating/false spawn on a fish that most people think cannot and should not be kept under any circumstances, I'm willing to brave the waters and see if things have changed..

19 fish in a 24 gallon tank. That's NOTHING. Clownfish are stocked by the HUNDREDS in tanks that size in hatchery operations. I've had to post it here before - fish do not mate if their needs are not met. So, to have most of the fish in that group of 19 MATING routinely, that is the benchmark of success and a happy tank and what is OK or NOT OK. 19 fish all beat to heck and skinny..not in my tanks.

Current Stocking - Bottom line, 19 fish in a 24 was a snapshot of the tank. MANY of the fish were small. Fish are moved around here much more often than what most hobbyists would do. Heck, I just sold the 2 extra female filefish I've had for the last 6 months and brought 4 more in from Blue Zoo to try to get a backup male. My current stockings at the moment are:

24 #1 - Mated Pair of Fire Clowns, Mated Pair of Longnosed Filefish, Spawning Pair of Spotted Mandarins, Pair of Scooter Blennies (and up until 2 weeks ago, a breeding pair of Blue Bar Dottybacks). Currently 8 fish in total.

24 #2 - 1m/2f Spawning Harem of Pygmy Angels, 1 Firefish, 1 Spawning Pair of Ocellaris, 1 Spawning Pair of Banggai Cardinalfish, 1 male Red Scooter Blenny, 1 Pair of Mandarins (the female has rejected the male after months of co-existence...it's a hard fast rule, the MALE MUST be larger than the female...she outgrew him!) - 11 fish currently (will be 12 when I find a female Red Scooter).

24 #3 - Spawning Pair of Onyx Percs, 1m/2f Fathead Anthias, 1 Yellowhead Jawfish, 1 Female Blue Star Leopoard Wrasse - 7 fish currently

6 #1 - Spawning Pair of Black Ocellaris, 1 Male Yashia Hase Goby - 3 fish total

If there's one thing folks so often overlook, it's not a number of fish or an inches of fish, it's simply BIOMASS. I'll tell you now, it'd be really easy to bring these numbers back up and have everyone tearing the hair out Small Gobies and juvenile clowns was the thing people didn't notice or take into account. Think about it. Add in a pair of Neon Gobies, a pair of Rusty Gobies, and a pair of Green Clown Gobies, and a pair of Greenbanded Gobies. That's 8 more fish, with less total biomass than a single male clownfish. Heck, I could throw in a half dozen Dwarf Seahorses in a breeder net in the back of the tank and it STILL wouldn't make a dent (HMM). How many of you could comforably add a single 2" clownfish to your tank right now? I know I could...or I could add in another 14 small fish that have the same approximate weight as the single clownfish...

So, for those who suggest there's some magic secret or new science, regretably that is not going to be the case, nor has it ever been. Good feeding and maintenance (water changes) combined with careful, thoughtful tankmate selection (and the ability to shuffle things around via multiple tanks or use a breeder net when things DON'T work)...that's all I do. Heck, the Nanocubes I run are for the most part stock (although the 24 gallon SPS tank that at it's peak temporarily housed 21 fish does have a Remora C Skimmer). Good 'ole planning and knowledge applied to my willingness to experiment.


And yes, I'm MWP, banned from RC. Supposedly all I have to do is appologize and ask for them to re-establish my account and they would. "Banned" has such a negative spin, and implies I somehow acted inappropriately or maliciously. I tend to think of it as "fired" after I had already handed my resignation in

Super short story on the "RC BANNING" for anyone who doesn't already know it - I was banned because I posted a listing in the "tank raised livestock selling forum" to sell a batch of 17 day old onyx perculas, that's basically just post meta, 0.25 inches, at $2.50 each, as a group, because I needed their tank to use for hospital purposes. I was accused of being a commercial vendor and was told by RC that ALL fish breeders, at ANY level, are commercial because we have more than one tank. I fought such a foolish line of logic and reasoning, futhermore defened my actions with their own aggreements and rules, and that just got them even more angry with me. The madness and disagreement escalated, in defense of my situations posted pictures of the nice hardwood flooring in my commercial hatchery space, as well as my massive amounts of capacity (less than 100 gallons total) and the hatchery employees (Alice the Dog and Tucker the Cat) and well, that sealed my fate. That's where the non-profit MOFIB came from, so I suppose if you like MOFIB, you can thank the terrific moderating staff at Reef Central for inspiring me

Captive Bred Tangs from China - actually not so far fetched (and wierdly, Brian92, were you actually joking about getting some or not? I ask, because I've heard OTHER rumors about the same thing...). Pond cultured Maculosus Angels are legitimate already. I wish we knew more about the methods that go into captive breeding tangs. We do know that you're not likely to get spawns on tangs in the average home aquarium (Atlantis Marine World, yes.. ) They just need WAY too much space and some tangs spawn in large groups (although the survival instict suggests that a lone male female pair should still try if everything else is right).

Back to the filefish



They have not even been hatched from captive produced eggs. Wild eggs have been collected and hatched, but no one has ever raised this fish to metamorphosis. In fact, as far as I know, Iris Bonig was the first to rear ANY filefish species through meta (Acreicthys tomentosus - double check that spellling though...) and she did that just earlier this year)



Based on the published information, these are NOT going to be easy to rear like the Bristletail Filefish were. The information suggests they'll hatch on the 2nd night post spawning, and will be prolarvae (no eyes, no gut, no mouth). At some point later, they should start feeding. To give you an idea what would be comparable that HAVE been reared - Mandarins and Centropyge angelfish. I've tried rearing both of those and once came "close", but it's truly quite difficult, ESPECIALLY for a hobbyist who is inland and cannot look to the ocean for even supplemental food

Jeremai, what science do you want? I laid out everything to date in the thread over at MOFIB - that's FULL disclosure in my book. There are MANY more videos there as well (see page 6). There's no "science" in terms of a formally declared hypothesis, or quantitative measurements...it's all observational. Well, OK, you got me, I did set out with a basic hypothesis which I conjured while looking at the first 2 files at the LFS. It's a 2 parter. Part 1 - Maybe I can get these to live, and... Part 2 - If I can get these to live, maybe I can get them to breed...

So that's where things stand. Courtship activity has continued, but seems to be falling off from the peak I noticed when I shot the video a couple days back. So of course, for now all I can do is note that we were heading into a new moon...will that mean anything? Only time will tell (but I know they're SUPPOSED to spawn daily...they're still new at this just like I am)

FWIW,

Matt

your agressive.
but from everything said here, i think i'd be more aggressive than you are.

i wish my fish were as horny as yours.

You'll note two posts are missing from this thread. If the bickering continues, or posts like them are posted again, people will be banned.

My bad O.C.

Thanks for the response MWP. I like what you are doing with the feeding and moving these fish from acro's to different foods and I think this has a LOT of value to all of us here. Perhaps many of the harder fish could use a food acclimation period. Obviously from what you write the sooner this happens from removal from the wild the better it is for the fish. Could you post a little more info on this? For instance the time frames between moving from one food to another. I think you are right in that the deaths of these fish could easily be proper acclimation to "our" foods. On the spawning. I'm curious to know if you could have the same results with only your breeding pair in the tank or do you find that the fish load in your system is causing them to more readily spawn?

Steve

You hit the nail on the head. "Food acclimation period"...I like that term, I may steal it and reuse it later I"ve kept a LOT of mandarins / dragonettes, and I've spawned 3 out of the four common species in 24 gallon nanocubes (rearing is another story, for INLAND aquarists, spawnings may be the "end of line" currently..the technology and resources aren't necessarily there yet). Another member of the MOFIB BOD has spawned Mandarins in a 10 gallon.

I have yet to have a single dragonette die of starvation. The KEY is training the fish onto frozen foods via isolation in a net breeder. I've posted this technique numerous times around the net, suffice it to say so long as you do not buy a fish that's past the point of no return (many dragonettes in theory ARE when you see them), any dedicated hobbyist should be able to train them and then sustain them, even in small nanos. Live adult brine shrimp, which is enriched with phytoplankton or selcon, provides a first food that all wild dragonettes seem willing to accept...from there, you can wean them onto frozen brine, and then frozen mysis, and from there, other things in time become fair game. The only OTHER crucial key is making sure they get fed enough once they're in the tank. Whether that need is met through heavy feedings, a feeding station, and/or carefully selected tankmates with similar feeding styles, that's really up to the individual hobbyist. Dragonettes are probably just a touch easier to keep than the average seahorse, and there are legions of dedicated seahorse keepers out there.



Frankly, in the fish I've trained to date, it just kindof happened all very gradually. Some of the foods I offered (i.e. Flake) I did so on a whim or for the other fish in the tank, and then I was surprised to see the filefish sample it as well. In generally, I think at this point, I'd say that getting the fish to sample foods is the first key (that's where offering things like actual SPS and gel foods on SPS skeletons get things started). Once the files settle in, they seem pretty willing to try to eat anything.

It's that "settle in" period that I think can go good or bad, and too often I think that the fish just are in too poor of shape by the time any hobbyist gets them. I.e. the first loss I have, the fish was literally a skeleton. I didn't WANT to purchase it, but out of the three fish the shop had, I *thought* at the time it was a male and the only one, so not knowing if I'd see more of these at all, I purchased it anyway (once I saw my first real male in person, the sexing became really easy).

I hope that with the 4 new ones, this will give me fresh experience, fresh observations, and perhaps I'll start to notice some trends. So far, the fish are rather reluctant to do anything...



Steve, I'm sorry, can you rephrase that? I'm just not sure what you mean...



A LOT of people have speculated that there is something "special" going on in my tanks...that is, when one fish species starts spawning, pheremones and other chemical cues may be released into the tank that get the other tankmates in the mood. I cannot confirm or deny that, and at this point I'd have no way to scientifically prove or disprove it either. While I think the theory has merit, I'd bet against it.

Based on everything I know about captive breeding of fish, be it freshwater or saltwater, there are really only a few things you need to provide, and the fish will do the rest. They are:

1. Good husbandry

2. The appropriate mate and social environment

3. Maturity (some fish simply take years to mature...patience is a virtue).

4. Proper nutrition

5. EXCESS of calories (production of gametes is a "luxury" for a fish that can only occur when all the other energy needs are already satisfied).

6. The proper stimulus to mate - sometimes that stimulus is simply the first 5 things on the list

Frankly, there are a LOT of ways that may of the above needs are nto met by most saltwater hobbyists. #1 is seldom an issue, but often because #5 isn't being provided (#5 produces nitrates). But how often is #2 still avoided...how many times do people only put ONE of something into their tanks? MANY of the fish we keep can be kept in multiples...if more people did that, more people would have fish spawning in their tanks!

FWIW,

Matt

All I ment was the food aclimation period of moving the fish from less desirable foods(for us not the fish LOL) like our corals to more desirable foods like flake food.

So to answer my question, you believe I could have the same results following your 6 key indicators of spawning success with only the breeding pair in the tank? The only reason I ask is I would be really interested in building the systems required in rearing the fry.

Steve

I don't really care one way or another, I think filefish are ugly as sin. I was just trying to remind everyone to keep the conversation civil. There's no need to bust out the bold, friend.

If I understand this followup question correctly, YES. Those 6 key things are what is needed to get just about any fish to mate. To elaborate a bit further:

1. Good Husbandry - clean tank, good water quality, appropriate sized tank, appropriate tankmates. Since this is Nano-Reef, let me elaborate on tankspace. Some fish, like Clownfish, truly need very little space. One commercial clownfish hatchery keeps almost all broodstock clownfish in tanks that are 7 gallons, some less, with only the truly gigantic specimens getting 15 gallon tanks. All are breeding quite happily. Conversely, while you can keep a seahorse in a smaller tank, they may need at least 3X their height in tank height in order to court and mate successfully. A smaller tank may prevent them from mating. I continue to have problems with my Bangaiis holding, and most breeders at this point attribute that to the fact that they share the 24 gallon tank with many other fish...a pair by themselves in a 24 (or even removing the female post spawning) may eliminate my incubation problems.

2. The appropriate mate and social environment - Some examples - In the case of these filefish, in nature they are typically observed in pairs, and males and females are easily discernable. So simply having a male and female is PROBABLY sufficient. In the case of Mandarins, it seems that if a male is smaller than the female, she wil not tolerate him and will become vicious towards him. So for dragonettes, it's likely that the male MUST be larger than the female, especially in a smaller tank like a nanocube. Science supports this on the basis that females in the wild always chose to mate with the largest available male. Even though the social structure in clownfish is to have a dominint female, #2 male, and then a number of sexually inactive juveniles, in most aquariums, this fails to work, and clowns are better left just as a pair without any distractions. In the case of Dwarf Angels, pairs do work, but a trio may be better as it spreads the aggression of the male between subordinant fish. More than 2 females could result in the dominant female turning male (as happened in my "quartet") - in nature the new male would leave and start it's own harem. In my nanocube, it was killed by all three fish in 24 hours.

3. Maturity - what else can I say? According to the one report from '94 on breeding Oxymonacanthus longirostris, one of the fish had been in captivity for 5 years, the other 3. So it took 3 years before spawning occured (if I'm intepreting the report correctly). Clownfish routinely take 2-3 years from hatch to maturity. So you can't always simply place 2 fish together and expect spawning to happen in a month or two.

4. Proper nutrition - it varies with whatever species you are trying to rear. Nutrition determines the quality of the resulting eggs and offspring too. Bottom line, you're not going to have a lot of breeding if you feed flake foods. A VARIETY of quality foods is what it takes. In the case of these filefish, we don't really konw what a surrogate diet should be. I've simply assumed that since coral tissue is both "animal" and "algae", that an omnivorous diet should provide both ends of the spectrum, and that all nutrition needs could be met. The longer they live, the more confident I'll be that this is a valid and correct approach.

5. EXCESS of calories - bottom line, if you feed your fish in a reef tank sparingly in order to minimize the resultant waste (and nitrates) you'll never meet this need, as whatever energy is obtained from feeding will go into survival, not procreation! My tanks are fed at least 3-4 times a day, and most all my fish look "robust", not obese, but nice and healthy. A classic example is to compare what a Tang / Surgeonfish looks like in the wild with what most of them look like in a Reef Tank. In the wild they are FAT/ THICK. In most tanks, VERY TRIM. I'm gonna guess that 95% or more of reefers don't really feed their fish enough to get any breeding activity, even if the first 4 requirements were met

6. The proper stimulus to mate - again, this can be hit or miss, and as I posted earlier, patience combined with the first 5 items being met is OFTEN all it really takes (i.e. the Cherub Angelfish spawned for the first time only 2 weeks after being added to my tank). Sometimes fish that appear to be ready to breed just don't. So we might manipulate the environment or diet in an attempt to stimulate mating. In the case of the Filefish, I had recently made 2 changes. 1 - I raised the temperature about 1.5 F. 2 - I started feeding live blackworms once or twice a day (often credited wtih stimulating spawning in a variety of fish species, and yes, I'm taking marine fish).




Well, no one knows what it's going to take to rear this species yet. Based on all the scientific literature out there, the offspring are likely going to be similar to Centropyge or Synchiropus. Those genera have been reared, and are in the "Difficult" category. The most difficult fish that have been reared to date in fact.



The bold just helped highlight each paragraph's topic....kept that long post readable. Wasn't shouting.

FWIW,

Matt

How about an update? Currently the pair that went through the motions is courting / displaying frequently, but I haven't witnessed another 'spawning event'. Granted, I've been way too busy to sit and watch the tank for hours on end like I did the night I caught everything on video. Seeing how fast it went, I could certaily miss it!

So I don't know if I posted anything about this on this thread, but when I came back to N-R I had my pair + 2 extra females on hand, all of which had been here for roughly half a year. At first I sold 1 of the extra females in order to finance an attempt to get another male...I got 1m/3f, which meant I was looking for at leats yet one more male, just to play it safe. Sold the 2nd spare female.

Since that shipment of 1m/3f arrived, the new male and 2 of the new females have settled in well. The third female, the smallest, has had a harder time adjusting. She got to spend a week in my 24 gallon SPS tank...she devoured my Montipora "lump" and pretty much also took out a M. spongodes colony. During that time she did NOT learn to eat prepared foods despite all the other fish in the tank "showing her". So I shuffled some of the filefish around, and she's now back in a QT tank by herself. She's certainly skinny now, but was observed eating ONDAD (Ocean Nutrition Dwarf Angel Diet) at least once today.

And at the 2 week mark, I don't consider any of these fish "out of the woods" yet. When I came across the opportunity to get 2 more males, I took it. If luck is on my side, and things go well, I could end up with a total of 4 pairs on hand, which is 2 more than I need for breeding. Realistically, if one of those males failes to make it, and the small female doesn't recover soon, I could easily end up with 3 pairs....or even worse, both new males kick it as well as the female and I'm at a 50% success rate on these new batches with only 1 spare fish.

It'll be interesting to see how this all goes down. From what I've seen, I have some new advice, especially for small tanks. Keep these fish singly or in m/f pairs. Having 2 females together may have been what prevented the smallest female from learning earlier on...she was being bullied into the corner and not realy getting time to come down to the tank floor to forage. For training, I think pairs may be the best, because I do think there is a 'monkey see, monkey do" aspect that might help. If ONE of the fish picks up on feeding, the other may pick up on it quicker as well. I feel like solitary fish may have a harder time adjusting.

It's all speculation still, but by the end of this year I'll have personally worked with a dozen+ and I think I'll have a good handle on how it all works...then it's time to write the article

FWIW,

Matt