the_zoa_fungus_cure_project
er1c_the_reefer's_experimental_qt


setting up a qt tank to cure this:



which i believe is the cause of this:



tank set up:


equipment list:

• 8 gallon unknown brand tank
• tunze nano skimmer
• maxijet 1200 (modded)
• egg crate
• iceprobe chiller
• cheapy 18w pcs from home depot

pending equipment:

• taam mini rapids canister filter (modded)

tank conditions:

• SG: 1.022-1.027
• temp: >85*F
• nh4/no2/no3: 0/0/15

basically crappy (but not too crappy) conditions i'm hoping will induce stress.

write up to follow, but so far here are my results:

taken 07.04.07 prior to treatment


taken 07.25.07: 21 days later and 2 dip treatments later


short informal write up added for those that like to read:

go doctor go

Are you using anything to dip with? I still can't figure out the plague that a rainbow paly colony of mine caught earlier this year... =/ And I have yet to know of anyone that had their polyps end up looking like how mine did...

it's not really a dip. the testing i did so far was used as a dip, but it's really not meant to be one. does it look like this?



if your polyps had gone to the extent of A, they're pretty much screwed. but B's are still savable.

STICKED

HOW DID YOU TREAT THE ZOAS!

short informal write up added to original post for those that like to read.

remember, side effects are as of yet unknown!

here's what the medication looks like:



it's pretty expensive, the generic comes out to $12 a pop. luckly i got these as samples from my doctor.

the little granules inside are not readily soluble in water, so you have to soak them in warm water and crush it up and make sure it dissolves first.

What timing...

I was *just* getting ready to post a question about this:


and how in the heck to cure it.

I got this frag as a freebie on an order a couple weeks ago, and when I got it, everything was happy, but over the weeks it has lost one polyp after another to this.

Mine looked like this... =/




They close up and then this thick cyano consistancy like white mat infests itself all over them... NOTHING that I've tried saves them from death when this occurs. I've tried it all, BiFuran+ dips for 48 hours (not 48 hours straight though), SeaChem Reef Dip, and Kent's Tech-D.

do you guys ever notice a brown/black "fuzz" or "slime" that grows on the zoas before they start to close up?






i think that the fungus itself isn't that harmful if you have proper conditions, but its when you stress the zoas that the fungus does it's damage.

tank is up with skimmer running. tank should be fully cycled and good to go with cured rock & water from another set up.

victims test subjects so far:

• 2 domino damsels
• several blue legged hermits
• a few infected frags

just waiting for the water to clear up before adding meds.

yep

I just went out and started my own experiment. I'm trying some Clotrimazole topical cream for athletes foot on that frag i posted the pic of. The frag is pretty much a loss as is anyway, so no further loss from a little experiment to see if the fungus will at least clear a little. I applied the cream directly to the zoas and dissolved a small amount in a cup and mixed with the tank water.

I have the frag by itself in a 6 gal I was going to use, had filled, but went another direction, and never drained. We'll see how it works out.

I plan on letting it sit for a couple hours with the cream, and then wipe most of it off and let it run overnight, then reapply in the morning for a couple hours, etc, etc, etc.

Good job!

How did you decide to try that med?

Those zoa problems are the biggest PITA of the easiest corals to keep!!

And just when I thought I was the only one that had the problem, and it was something I was doing wrong, along comes more people with the same problem, and unsure solutions.

clotrimazole should work; i know they use it for nasal aspergillosis in dogs. i actually tried that before i used itraconazole just to make sure that these would work in saltwater. i dissolved a pea-sized amount in a cup of water and did similar dips, but didn't like all the proprietary compounds, fragrances, binders, etc. that they put in it. make sure you do this in a qt tank though; i'm still unsure as to what the side effects are on other corals.

let me know if applying it directly helps...



well, i was reading about how African dust is contaminating Caribbean reefs with Aspergillus... which is related to the black molds you find in your house. then you have the rising cases of aspergillosis in immunocompromised patients in hospitals... and this is a secondary medication they use to treat it, so i thought i'd give it a shot. looks promising if you catch it early

its in a QT tank. Actually a tank I used for a while back when and kept having issues with the light blowing bulbs, so I ditched it and it just sat on my desk filled but not alive.

I'm using the Equate brand stuff, doesnt appear to have any smell to it, but there are a couple extra additives in the med. But, like I said earlier, this is on a frag that will otherwise be trash anyway, but at least I'll be able to see if the med clears the fungus any hopefully.

Doh, that reminds me, time for your medicine little sick zoas...

ok here's an update as to how the treatment is going so far.

08.03.07


08.06.07


08.10.07


groupings 1 and 3 have made good come backs. grouping 2 is on its way. grouping 4 is still struggling but you can see one of the polyps starting to make it.

also note that above i said A's probably weren't savable. they seem to be making a good come back, however.

i hate zoos

Any updates on how the zoas are doing using the equate clortrimazole?

I have a few tubes of that stuff laying around here and I was JUST about to start a Maroxy dip with my frags... but since I have no information on maroxy working, I'd like to see how the clortrimazole worked for you... either of you actually, Eric. How'd it work for you?

Unfortunatly I couldn't find Furan2 around here and don't really have time to wait 3-5 business days for a shipment. Maroxy was all I could find that seemed safe enough to use... there was triple sulfa, but something about it just didn't seem right... I think the fact that it was made by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals... and I HATE that little Dr. Fish guy.

i remember reading posts about how furan2 actually accelerated the decline of zoas with fungus. if what i'm guessing is correct, its because furan2 kills off bacteria that compete with fungus on the zoas. you know, kind of like how people on antibiotics for a while can get candidiasis. same with triple sulfa; i believe its an antibacterial.

i never tried clotrimazole directly on polyps before, but i've mixed it into water and dipped zoas in it. it does work, but its seems stressful. the way i dipped was for an hour every day until it was gone. antifungals work best when its in the system and not with dips though, and since clotrimazole mostly comes in creamy form, i'm not sure how you'd work that out. you can always experiment and apply it to the frag and put it in a qt tank. risky though

man i thought i was the only one with this problem. my problem is gone now since the fungas killed about 500 polyps

Yeah, that method (applying directly) seems a little drastic and I really don't want to loose any of my zoas because the ones I have are the rare ones that the store gets it... they're not really anything too special, but several of them are amazing looking (IMO) and a few of them don't have a common name according to zoaid.com, I know my tanks under PCs, but the the store's tanks are under MH and I'm going off of the color from the store. I have 2 175w MH lights laying around here now, so I might just wire one up and put it over the 10 to see how it goes... and that's really off topic and I started to ramble. ANYWHO, the point is I REALLY don't want to lose any of my zoas since I only have 1 colony of each. In some cases (like with what I'm calling the zoa I'm calling Husky Eyes) I only have 1 polyp... so, yeah... little nervous about hurting them. Fortunantly, it doesn't have fungus... unfortunantly, the purples and reds that I have (1 polyp of each) do.. so... yeah, like I said... just really nervous.

Any opinions on Maroxy as a dip, then?

You should throw in some cheap acro's, monti's, or other sps in there to see if the treatment affects them. It would be nice to know if this is reef safe for the people who have it and don't have a QT.

Keep up the good work!

although i haven't really tested maroxy yet, bought a bottle just so i could do dips with it and its not all that effective. i'd try to stay away from dips all together, because of the way eukaryotic metabolism works.

i have a feeling that if you follow the instructions on the bottle, it should be more effective. it recommends a qt tank, 1/2 teaspoon per 10 gallons once a day for 5 days.



i'm planning to when chiller comes in. the qt tank is running at 86 right now, which i think would kill sps outright. i want to try it directly into my prop system, but not while ez's clams are in there.

Unfortunantly, no QT tank... I have another 10gal in the garage, no good lights or filter though. But for 5 days, I guess a HOB filter and 4 NO fluorescents will have to do. For 5 days, I'd be amazed if a dozen or so zoas could put off enough waste to fowl the water. I guess I'll just have to try it and see how it works... someone's got to, right? I've book marked this thread so I can post a follow up when I'm done with... crap, actually don't even have enough salt to do a 10gal mix right now... shoot. I have enough for maybe 2 gals... I'll just cut a milk jug and do 1 gal mix and put an airstone in there for some flow... wish me luck, I guess.

Wow.. if you download the file, and highlight the 2 pics, it takes an x-ray, and you can see where the fungus is Try it! Eric is a Genius!

I must have missed it but, how do we attain the prescription meds your using? I remember the document said it was a human prescription med. Would there a version of it we can get from the vet?

i got mine as a free sample from my gp; he looked at me funny when i asked for it, but i explained to him what i was using it for and he was glad to help out and gave me a few sample packs.

i'm not sure if vets can prescribe it or not, since they might be limited to what they can write for. i know some vets can do prescribe human medications for dogs and cats (e.g. atenolol for the heart). i don't think this is a controlled medication, so it wouldn't hurt to ask.

looking at the price ($12/capsule for the generic which lasts 20 days), however, i wouldn't recommend anyone try it until i'm for sure that it works, which means more testing.

additionally, i just googled it and found that it comes in liquid. that would've helped a lot instead of having to crush granules. too bad its well over $100 for the bottle.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

I'm in the process of trying to figure out what to do. I ran across this article while researching. Are you guys telling me Furan-2 treatment doesn't work?

http://www.zoaid.com/articles004.php
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~Sea...al~vendor~.html

I've got a QT tank I'm in the process of setting up but wanted to hear what you guys thought of this treatment.

I have lost a ton of zoas in the past few months. Lost so many in one tank it crashed it, and im just now starting to recover, didnt loose any fish but most of the corals are a lose.

I have saved a few colonies with furan 2 dips, but whos to say they didnt save themselves?

None of us really know what is causing this, we are all guessing.

I wish a larger company with some $$$ would step up, do some research. and find out what is causing this and how to cure it. Shots in the dark with a little success here and there and people contradicting what works and what doesnt because so many people are trying different things and all have had some success.

We need to know what is really going on, not keep guessing.

Good job on trying new stuff though!

speculation so far is that zoa pox, which furan is used for, is bacterial in nature. pox actually do remind me of small bacterial colonies growing on top of nutrient agar gel in the lab. pox are probably bacteria growing under the mucus layer of the coral or maybe in the coral itself. bacteria tend to have a higher metabolism and reproductive rate than fungi, and therefore compete with fungi for space. when you kill off the bacteria (and keep in mind most bacteria are good) living on corals by dipping, it gives fungi a chance to take over (i made an analogy to yeast infections earlier). fungal infections are harder to cure than bacterial infections.

my recommendation is to look long and hard at your zoas before deciding treatment as furan so far seems like a double edge sword. if its pox, furan. if not, then don't.

I have been doing seachem reef dip for fungus without any results.

There is no doubt that furan cures pox, or atleast slows it.

I have also taken frags with the so called "fungus", both the red and black types, and put them in other tanks and watched the fungus go away and the zoas open within a couple days.

....what?? $12 each?

Itraconazole? My patients get 180 capsules for approximately $350-375, so $2/pill. Crushing up itraconzaole puts it in a "suspension" of sorts. It doesn't mean it's actually dissolved all the way. Reef tanks are usually kept at a higher pH while itraconazole requires an acidic pH to become readily absorbed by tissues. That's why they recommend you to take it with food. Food -> stomach acid -> lower pH -> increased absorption.

You might want to try Fluconazole. Higher bio-availability, easily dissolved, and easier absorption in the human body....which might lead to higher absorption through the membranes covering zoas.

I don't have this problem on my zoas but I have some kind of fungus on my cloves. I seems similar to what is shown in the pics.

What do you suggest I try? I don't want my prized cloves dying

I will not be able to get prescription meds , I know my doctor will not give them to me lol.
I know you can get some meds at these little stores by my house but I am not sure..

tails, i think red fungus is cyano, because i had that too, but it went away when i used red slime remover. i have zoas/palys colonies covered in black fungus, and they don't die or anything. i do notice that they have a tougher time closing in response to being touched and usually start dying off later on when stressed. usually this means i can't frag them or else none of the frags make it.

epic, where are your patients getting the pills? i got quoted $12 cash price for generics from the local pharmacy. no insurance coverage, of course. i figured the on the best absorption at pH 2.0, but thought that it doesn't necessarily have to be absorbed into zoas if fungi were growing on the outer layers of polyps, so i thought i would give it a shot anyways because my doctor said fluconazole wasn't recommended for aspergillus.

here's 08.19.07



i don't know if it was the meds or the conditions of the qt tank, but i think its a complete recovery.

My frag just melted away. Of course, I think mine was a goner anyway because they had all closed up and been covered for about a week. I was trying the topical cream method.

If I have another get an infection and actually looks like it might stand a chance, I'll try again, but (knock on wood) I don't appear to have any infected subjects at the moment.


.edit.
I did however notice, before they really started to melt, a couple days after treatment the fungus started to flake off and the zoas were exposed. I think they had been attacked on the inside though, because they just melted.

new specimen on 08.11.07


this one has brown fungus instead of black

Awesome research!

Furan 2 works on zoo pox, I did it on 2 small colonies and they seem to be recovering. The thing that ####es me off is that if the pox is in the tank then I will probably need to re-dip them eventually.

Has anyone had a colony that recovered only to get re-infected down the road?


Also since your using human medications less personal contamination. Furan-2 is labeled as highly carcinogenic, makes me wonder if it is worth using it...

So is Kalkwasser, I use that stuff every day in the tank. These fish live in a different environment than we do. I mean what happens if you drink salt water, I'm sure it's more than corrected(caustic) to us. Just a different biological system.

i don't think kalkwasser is carcinogenic. caustic is the word.

sorry i haven't updated in a while guys. the cost of doing this is a little bit prohibitive at the moment. i gotta look into find a cheaper source for meds, maybe hop the border down south to a pharmacia in TJ or something.

anyways, i'm going to try something new: UV and ozone. my friend says he runs ozone and UV on one of his tank where as his mom's tank doesn't. his mom's tank constantly has issues with fungus but he's never noticed it in his tank. it might just be a pure fluke of luck, but its worth a shot.

great write up er1c.

Wow! Great stuff you're doing here, very interesting, and very helpful to the hobby as a whole! Thanks!

er1c and group,

Great site and info. er1c, your article was great. Just some additional info. .....I am an exotic parrot breeder of African Grey parrots. African species are prone to asper (aspergillosis). I am quite familiar with the drugs being used for treatment, and I even have a 30ML bottle of the liquid Sporanox from 2000, expired of course. I assure you a vet can write a script and it is not very expensive. Naturally when using it for birds it is probably in a "flavored" solution.

I was recently at Moffit research clinic with a niece being screened for a bone marrow transplant. The team there said asper is a great concern and I asked what is the drug of choice now for treating asper. They now use VFEND......voriconazole. they said it is a much better drug than itraconazole. I guess this is fairly recent, since it was just lectured about at the national avian vet conference.

I have a small frag, from a friend, of pink zoas that developed this "coating" a few days after I received them. I have searched for days trying to find info that made sense.......I think I found it.....thanks a bunch! I tried the peroxide dip a few days ago, and they were all open the next day, but yesterday and today they are worse and none, it appears, can open now. I am sure they broke with it due to stress from fragging and moving to a new environment all in one day.

I think I may shot-gun my little zoas, with the expired meds, since I doubt they will live anyway. If they do, they may be cherry flavored, pink zoas.

With the birds it is not contagious, even with direct contact, so I am hoping it works the same in the reef tank. I have only been doing a reef since June. I am new to reefs, but had fish only back in the late 70s and early 80s. WOW! have things changed since then. Once again, great site and info-thanks.
Jean

I too am new to the whole zoa thing and have had a couple frags waste away on me. Of course that was shortly after my 8g BC at school was set up. I have had one or two polyps waste away on me on a few frags recently but nothing big that affected the entire frag. I will keep my eyes open for some signs of what is causing the "wasting-away" and if it starts to happen go and have the wife pick me up some meds. She is a nurse almost done with her FNP

can we get an update on this ?
thats what mine look like O_o

Mine look like that too, i did a 10 min dip of lugols solution says to add 40 drops to 1 gallon of tank water so i did a dip with some ro/di water, see if it works.

Just out of curiosity has anyone been able to identify which types of zoas are affected more. I am still on the inexperienced side but I noticed that I first got zoa pox treated them w/ furan2 and different zoas responded differently.

(I got a bunch from fraggle reef so I am using their names)
Dragon Eyes got hit really hard
Eagle Eyes Hit hard
Orange Bam Bams - slightly hit but recovered after treatment, recently got it again. It doesn't spread as fast as the ones above.
Alien Eyes - not affected
Blue Organisms - Not Affected
Plain green ones from LFS - not affected.

Was wondering if you have any new updates or if it wnet by the way side.

has anyone tried to dose with Vitamin C? i heard that the zoa fungus/pox was a sideffect of a weak immune system in the coral and could be remedied with vitaminc and possibly a vit b. ???