Hey folks---wow--what a discussion huh?

I have been hit with quite a few PMs asking to re-start this thread with less #######ishness from me.

So--with adin's approval---let's try this again.

Before we begin--please--this will be based on personal experiences. I don't do this for a living. But I do love the hell out of this hobby and I want to inspire more hobbyists to grow and share their coral. The most important thing we will get from this thread and discussion is understanding---and hopefully a historical reference for future shippers.

I myself, don't typically use ice for shipping. Why, you ask? Well, it's my personal opinion that ice is cold.

I don't know if a small amount of ice will kill coral or not. I usually ship small pieces in small boxes.

I've used an ice pack once upon the request of an ebayer--and it worked fine. I look at it as another hassle--another "supply" and expense--and in my experience of shipping frags for years and years---unnecessary.

Grow and share your coral---don't be afraid to ship. Log in your experiences---and maybe change my mind about cold packs.

In the meantime---I will be running my non-chilled shipping experiences all summer long. Post here and join me.

in my experience, if you use a good insulating styro box, you don't need heatpacks or ice.

The other thread wasn't that bad
I've seen much worse....but anywho!

If miguel comes back on, can you tell us which corals / what temps / and where to the DOAs were (if you remember) ?

I have had trouble with no heat----as a recipient. I have had things shipped to me in "hobbyist made" boxes like I use--without heat--and BAM--DEAD. But as for the "pro" boxes like Uline has---maybe they are more airtight and hold better???

I know that air and water are also 2 great insulators. I don't use much water when I ship--but there is air space.

no heat packs? I don't know about that one i had a pack of rics shipped in a styro back a few months ago from Florida and while it was nice down there it was still nasty up here and when i put my hand in the water it was very cold.
I think that a lot of this is locational.
If you are shipping on a cool east coast day you probably will not need an ice pack most of what makes for a warm day here in the east is the humidity anyways and if packaged well thats shouldn't be a huge problem just a thought

Will....not let......thread..........die...............

I gots me some coral from adin today--from CA to PA in a ULINE Propack type sealed styro box, no ice, and all is well. Looking good---LPS were in da box.

Ever seen these boxes?
http://www.abcicehouse.com/control_temp_packaging.htm
order enough and they will custom make boxes for ya.

I for one only use ice packs if the buyer insists. Why, you ask? They don't last more than 6-8 hours. Let's just say under ideal conditions the ice pack lasts 12-14 hours tops. When do we typically drop off the boxes??? Let's see........as LATE as possible!!! Which means for me it's 3:15 p.m. for USPS Express, 5 p.m. for USPS Priority Mail (don't even bother), or 5 p.m. or later for UPS/FedEx.

Hmmm......what are the facilities like when you drop them off? AIR CONDITIONED!!! Even if it isn't, it's not hot like in a delivery truck, trust me.

Now, let us go back to the drop off times. If I dropped off the package with an ice pack (extra dead weight) at 3:15 with the pack being effective for the maximum 14 hours, it's basically useless by 5:15 a.m. the next morning. With a drop off time of 5 p.m., the ice pack becomes dead weight by 7 a.m. the next morning. Even taking the time zones into account, shipping from the west coast to the east coast, it'll be 10 a.m. at the latest. Shipping from the east coast to the west coast, the ice pack actually becomes ineffective earlier.

And what are the temps like around 10 a.m.? Typically not that hot yet, right? So the most critical period between the time when the ice pack is melted and the time of delivery, it's nothing but dead weight. Actually, if you think about it, It's DEAD WEIGHT the minute it's put inside the box. Why pay more for shipping if it's not necessary???

As adin said, insulate well and the corals will be ok. Although heat packs is a whole different story

you might need a heat pack if you ship somewhere where there's a >1ft of snow on the ground. if your shipping to me in sunny so cal however, just put it in a box and ship it here next day it'll be fine, heat pack or not.

cold pack my experience with is the same as mvite's. dead weight. i used to put ice in a baggy and put it in with the corals, but i've been told it comes melted and warm anyways.

Wow--I can't believe that I'm the only one who received coralz this week!!! BUT---

Er1c shipped me all kinds of zoas and a favia. No ice or heat from CA to PA. It was weird---I left a note for my mail lady to leave my package for me. She left it in direct sun on my front porch!!! When I picked it up--the outer box was radiating heat outwards---and I was scairt!!!! But when I opened the package---the water was borderline cold!!! It wasn't freezing---but it was probably low 70's.... that was weird---but everything is looking great.

I also shipped some SPS from PA to both MD and CA without heat or ice---confirmed live arrival!!

In my opinion, the ONLY way to ship is in an insulated styrofoam "cooler style" box.

99% of the time, heat & ice packs will not be needed!

No offense, but the DIY ones do not work very well and look horrible. Even ReefHotSpot's styro boxes made from 6 pre-cut sheets is pretty weak.

If you're a serious coral farmer and have moved into the profit range, invest in the good boxes. Of course, don't waste them on $5 zoa frags...

Where did you get the box you sent me?

I looked at uline---but they are expensive!!! Like $8-$15 each. I want to balance between effective and cost effective.

There's no doubt that the real styro does it best----but it costs more. And shipping is via freight carriers, I think. I just tried to order a bunch of styro peanuts and they were gonna ship motor freight only!!!

Recently I bought from a place that shipped in a plastic Coleman type cooler. I am betting that still isn't as airtight as the pro style boxes you reference--they are the best--no doubt.

When it comes to reef stuff i'm a PACKRAT. That box came from an order of Hawaiian shrimp awhile back

On the RARE occasion I need to ship something large, I just run by my buddy's LFS and grab a stryo box that the coral comes in... in.

Please don't knock us poor DIYers

I have always used 3/4" styro sheets cut to fit whatever boxes I used. Having shipped probably close to 200 times all over the lower 48, I've never had a problem with cold or heat.

On the other hand. I have received frags shipped in these cooler box DOA during the winters. Even though a heat pack was used, it was still freezing inside. What the shipper didn't know was that the heat packs need oxygen to work efficiently. In an essentially "air tight" cooler, the heat pack didn't work and the temp dropped too low.

^^Whoa pookie--good point that I forgot! HEAT PACKS NEED AIR TO BREATHE!! (but pook--adin said he didn't use heat!!) but still--good point that hopefully those that read this will remember and tell a friend.

When I first started shipping I had an old timer who owned a LFS tell me that he poked a hole in the top of the styro container lid with a screwdriver to allow air to get in for the heat pack.....I don't know about that one.

I agree that our DIY boxes aren't aesthetically pleasing, but at AWESOME AQUATICS, we hire only the most handsome and debonair people to cut and assemble our DIY boxes so you can rest assured that our well-over-1000 packages shipped will deliver to you safely---time and time again---or I will replace your coral. The sponsor thing has given me a little buzz...

Drunk with power already huh ?

He conquers the masses of needy reefers begging for coral!

lol!

WE ARE THE POWER!!!

Plus, I just received 5 awessie acan pieces shipped from CA today with no heat or ice. 100% survival today!!

Just to add Vite...the package I received from you some time back...PPE seemed to be in trouble..NNOTTTT

Its doing just fine... along with everything else.

Eden...
is really coloring up under my T-5... rock on Mvite.

Ill be getting your package ready soon...the nice thing about working in the Lab...we throw awesome reagent
packaging away daily...nice for me

Izzue

^^I am glad to hear about the PPE! They get weird sometimes... I only have 1 left! LOL!!! Some guys came by my place the other night and wiped me out. I can't say no....

Same here LOL!!

I may have killed some monti caps via UPS Ground on Thursday. They arrived alive---were not drip acclimated---looked ok at night---but were bleached white in the AM. His tank is cool---and my montis are fine here. It was shipped in-state Ground and was delivered later in the day. I don't think ice would have helped--but time release ice may have.

I guess I shouldn't ship UPS Ground in-state in the summer. I am re-shipping to him via USPS Express. Luckily, Express services us for this in-state route.

I just bought some digital thermometers at Walmart for my snake. They have a "highest" and "lowest" setting. I wonder if I included it in a trade if we could record it???

It was $7--so it's not like we wanna buy a bunch of em-- but it could give us an idea. I want to refine our methods--that's why I keep bringing this up!!

Did anyone happen to find out the skinny on these boxes?
http://www.rncind.com/index.html
Or these?
http://www.thermosafe.com/content.cfm/temp_assur_products

I have the wholesale price listings for the 1st link but I wont post it publicly.
( Can't )

EMail me Mark.

are you thinking of selling them to the general public or is that a no no?

Nope.
I WAS going in on an order with a friend of mine until I saw the REAL cost.
Bout $180.00 smackers for frigg'n 50 boxes.
Thats CRAZY MAN TALK !

I can make up 60 of my own for less than $74.00.
10 more and half the cost.

Hmmm 3.60 cents a box

Really ? For premade and insulated?

I am paying like .60 for boxes now and who knows how much for styro. Send me some info---I will buy some!!

3.60 isn't too bad at all. (+shipping??)

Ok so I am not the only one..
I mean all you have to do it assemble them tape them up and send them out.
Not having to cut Styrofoam would be worth the extra to me lol.
Just include the 3 bucks in the shipping charge or something I know most the website i buy from have a 5 dollar handling fee and those are the ones with the good packaging.

The idea is to make money fellas. Not spend it back out

I can do with out them until winter.
When the cold hits I'll buy'em.
Until then its stock boxes for me.

No that $3.60 per is with shipping.
It really isn't that bad at all, but I am an extreme tight azz.
I may order a few to test them out, but not 50.
They do have a 25 box minimum though.

I'll shoot that info your way Mark.

Thanks buddy--That would be great.

You should see my friggin garage. My side---I haven't put my car in for almost 8 months!! My wife's side looks like it's snowin over there from all the shredded styro.

With me payin .50 per box already---along with 8.88 worth of styro at lowes to make 8 boxes--I am spending a little over a dollar per box now. For piece of mind---and better yet----NEATNESS OF MY GARAGE--I will try some of those.

Just buying the boxes from ULINE has given me time back in my life. I can imagine that pre-cut insulation would be a fetish guilty pleasure of mine...muhahahahaha.....boy has my life gotten lame...

I still kind of like the thermosafe packages better

This may not be very applicable to the discussion, or maybe it will. I made a trade with a guy in San Francisco for some mangrove propogules. He shipped 2-day in an insulated (or maybe it was just padded) big envelope (he shipped 6 propogules) and I happened to be in the front yard when the mailman drove up. I took the package and it felt HOT! So I took it inside and stuck a thermometer into the package before I even opened it and it read 91F degrees Owwwww. It didn't seem to have bothered the mangroves but I suspect a coral or zoanthid of any kind would have been toast.

Hmmm..

I received some snakes today that were shipped Fedex in a home made insulated box---using a cold pack. It came from SC to PA. When it got here at 10am this morning--the ice pack was still 1/2 frozen. It was separated from the snakes with a piece of insulation (rigid) and the pack was wrapped and wrapped in newspaper.

The snakes were very cold----I was most impressed with the staying power of the guy's cold pack. He said he dropped it at Fedex at 8PM EST last night and it arrived here at 10AM. If there was some way I could temper the cold a bit---I would buy those cold packs. I just think sealed up in a box--those snakes were COLD--water would have been in the 60's for sure---for how long, I dunno.

I received snakes earlier this week with a styro box and an ice pack--and when it came--the ice was thawed and warm. That came from TX.

These things don't mean much---

But---

I am sorta thinking of a cold pack with a vent or something.

I just don't want to worry when I ship.

Couldn't you just wrap them in newspaper and then put them in a separate compartment.

But my thoughts are that the ice is cold right at the shipment start. The water has to be affected at that time.

Do you see what I am sayin?

Yea you are going to get a surge of cold at the beginning cant really see a way around that.

I had some tubbs blues shipped to me from someone from frags.org with no insulation -- just in the box--I think I mentioned that.

They never opened and I contacted the seller yesterday. He re-shipped today for tomorrow delivery (saturday eeek!) and used insulation and an ice pack. I'm not optimistic! But---At least the guy was real nice about it! I paid for re-shipping though. I didn't want to make a fuss.

But at least we are pretty sure right now that shipping uninsulated in the winter WILL DEFINITELY KILL YOUR CORAL.

That's a baseline for us to build on with our knowledge....

Do you want me to say it or......?













*duh*

I am glad you said it!!! Nobody is sayin nothin otherwise!!!!

I got my Tubbs yesterday---as well as a HUGE piece of some crazy Cotton Candy Pink morph-as a freebie!!!-truly insane!

They were cold as heck---He used tube ice---I have never seen it. They looked like rolls of coins. They were made of assorted colors of plastic----they were small tubes. He used 2 in a fairly large box--but he put them right in there with the zoas----in a sealing styro box---PRO PACK.

The water was very cold to the touch. The Tubbs haven't opened yet--but the Cotton Candy's have--and there were like 25 or more.

I'm not sure what that means to us.....

It means you were lucky they dint freeze to death

OMG--How did we get stickied??!!!

Thanks POWERS THAT BE!!!

Here's another one--

I have some great ebay friends that I have dealt with for years. From time to time, they prune their overgrown coral and sell it to me.

Today--I had a great guy from FL send me 10 heads of purple tipped hammer coral. He shipped in a PRO PACK sealed styro box--and get this---HE RUBBERBANDED AN ICE PACK AND ADDITIONAL ICE CUBES TO THE BAG OF CORAL!!!

It seems to be alive! The water was room temperature in the ice pack and ice cube bag---and the coral is still retracted--but not fraying or overly slimy. HMMM....


The chilled Tubbs from the other day still haven't opened--and neither have the original ones from 2 weeks ago. The recent Cotton Candy freebies are doing great!

Coral is pretty strong!

My tubs are very picky also i have some that have been closed to a week but still look healthy so I am leaving them alone

Inspect the tubs for pox or fungus carefully.
Thats a sign of it ( if the cold didn't damage them)

The polyps of the tubbs look fine--they are all firm and complete---no frayin or disintegration...

One head of the 11 on the hammer is dead. I think it's the part that had direct contact with the ice---but all the other heads are fine.

Maybe ice ain't so bad---That's the only sorta death I have had from it so far.

I'm still not gonna use it--but nothing has really died if the ice has been properly separated from the corals.

Hello, my name is Mark, and I am the only one who is receiving coral in the summer.

Eff you guys, I am participating!!

I shipped via USPS Express to NY from PA--and even though the signature was waived, the apathetic and snoozing PO worker did not leave the box containing MICROMUSSA for the recipient, instead they kept it in the truck and then returned to the PO with it. My client called the PO and went there to get it immediately. Luckily all is fine. It's a mild 85 in PA today---I could only assume the same for NY--so not a scorcher day. No ice.

I'll throw in a few comments then - shipped one last week, UPS ground, 2 day travel time from Kentucky to Philly area. No ice, everything made it fine.

I got a few more I should hear about in the next couple of days - one even has an ice pack, but its Priority, so I have no idea what will happen.


One thought I had - the specific heat of the water/gel in ice packs is extremely high compared to the air in the box. Even after the ice has melted, the water would be a pretty good insulator...not sure if it's better than adding styro, but it's something to think about.

I live here in Las Vegas and since our temps reach 110+ Im very hesitent to order corals ice packs or not. The local fish stores get there stuff in and I never see ice packs but they ship alot together in a insulated styro box. Any of you guys ship to vegas in the summer?

I've never shipped to Vegas in the Summer---I would rather personally deliver those!

I know that I plan on "resting" around December-Feb this winter. I wonder if there are months (and regions) to do that with in Summer? Whenever I am going somewhere that is proclaimed "very hot"--I try to use a Pro Box.

I just have a hard time charging $45 for shipping. I usually just refer to someone closer.

ARGH!!

Well--I killed 2 SPSs yesterday.

UPS GROUND IN STATE --- IN THE SUMMER = NO NO NO NO NO

The few DOA's I have had---have been in-state UPS ground. It's cheap-- $8, but it spends the entire time on the truck (no plane) and it's the last package delivered and can be rescheduled as mentioned prior.

It didn't get delivered until 6pm last night--and it was HOT.

NO MORE IN STATE UPS GROUND IN THE SUMMER OR WINTER FOR ME!!!

Only Fall and Spring shipping via UPS Ground in - state from now on!

I know Mark, It's Hot Hot HOT!! So Hot as a matter of fact, I think I saw Dolly Parton sellin' "Shade"! LOL!!