WARNING Zoanthid and Palythoa fraggers!

[bulldogpet]

I just read up on some stuff for work and found a related wikipedia article: I found this on another reef forum thought I would share.

 

 

Quote:

Some zoanthids contain the highly toxic substance palytoxin. Palytoxin is one of the most toxic organic substances in the world, but there is an ongoing debate over the concentration of this toxin in these animals. However, even in small quantities, the toxin can be fatal should it be ingested or enter the blood stream. If delivered immediately, vasodilators injected into the ventricle of the heart can act as an antidote

In order for this toxin to be dangerous to humans, the average aquarist would need to ingest the zoanthid in sufficient quantities, or brush a recent cut over it. Average handling, propagation and aquarium maintenance is unlikely to pose any danger beyond a localized skin reaction.

Palytoxin is a tumor promoter, and is being studied in relation to signaling pathways in skin cancer genesis. Contrary to common belief, palytoxin can be absorbed through intact skin. The danger of acute poisoning from venomous zoanthids is quite real. An aquarist was poisoned through skin injuries on fingers by a Parazoanthus species, but recovered after 3 days. His zoanthid was found to contain 2-3 milligram of palytoxin per gram. For comparison, the intravenous LD50 dose of palytoxin for a grown man is less than 8 microgram. Thus each gram of the offending zoanthid contained enough venom to kill at least 125 grown men.

 

Please be careful when fragging your softies!

[franklypre]

yep there's already threads about this. Did you know there is a snail (cone snail) that can stick you with its harpoon, death comes within a minute. Just FYI

[chucktdbm321]

yea i saw something on the discovery channel about those snails its pretty crazy. Im sure you could do a quick youtube search and bring up the segment about them

[luvmyacans]

Jesus..how many times a day does this have to be brought up? Try using search, it works.

 

I've rubbed paly snot all over my eyes and open wounds, NOTHING happens.

[Reefmonster]

Jesus..how many times a day does this have to be brought up? Try using search, it works.

 

I've rubbed paly snot all over my eyes and open wounds, NOTHING happens.

Wow...get over yourself. Why are ALL your posts like this?

[franklypre]

Jesus..how many times a day does this have to be brought up? Try using search, it works.

 

I've rubbed paly snot all over my eyes and open wounds, NOTHING happens.

 

 

+1 and I would like very much for you to repeat that experiment, document it, and please take pics or better yet stream it live on youtube. It would be classic, maybe even chew some up.

[paneubert]

Wow...get over yourself. Why are ALL your posts like this?

 

 

Yeah, do you have the same level of emotion about world hunger? Simmer down a bit.

[Guest TheBlueLorax]

Jesus..how many times a day does this have to be brought up? Try using search, it works.

 

I've rubbed paly snot all over my eyes and open wounds, NOTHING happens.

 

Actually their are peeps on here who have had minor reactions to touching a paly or zoa with an open wound an u need ease up chump

 

This guy was obvioulsly tryin to contribute to our well being... even though most of us already knew this.. Thanks anyway bulldog pet

 

EDIT I can see people already beat me to the punch by two minutes

[Dani3d]

It,s only in some palythoas, and has not be proven to be in any zoanthids so far. There is a lot of myths around this and out of the thousands of people fraggins zoanthids and even palythoas with bare hands, me included, no one has died. I get paly gewy all over my hands when I frag and no I never had a metal taste in my mouth..except when I drink beer, that does it!

 

I just read up on some stuff for work and found a related wikipedia article: I found this on another reef forum thought I would share.

 

 

Quote:

Some zoanthids contain the highly toxic substance palytoxin. Palytoxin is one of the most toxic organic substances in the world, but there is an ongoing debate over the concentration of this toxin in these animals. However, even in small quantities, the toxin can be fatal should it be ingested or enter the blood stream. If delivered immediately, vasodilators injected into the ventricle of the heart can act as an antidote

In order for this toxin to be dangerous to humans, the average aquarist would need to ingest the zoanthid in sufficient quantities, or brush a recent cut over it. Average handling, propagation and aquarium maintenance is unlikely to pose any danger beyond a localized skin reaction.

Palytoxin is a tumor promoter, and is being studied in relation to signaling pathways in skin cancer genesis. Contrary to common belief, palytoxin can be absorbed through intact skin. The danger of acute poisoning from venomous zoanthids is quite real. An aquarist was poisoned through skin injuries on fingers by a Parazoanthus species, but recovered after 3 days. His zoanthid was found to contain 2-3 milligram of palytoxin per gram. For comparison, the intravenous LD50 dose of palytoxin for a grown man is less than 8 microgram. Thus each gram of the offending zoanthid contained enough venom to kill at least 125 grown men.

 

Please be careful when fragging your softies!

[DaneMarx]

I have experienced a very brief dizziness and tingling in my fingers (only the hand that wasnt in a glove) and sinus when fragging palys before. Of course I cant say it was definitely the palys, but I think its a safe bet. This stuff does happen, but it is incredibly uncommon. I still dont bother to wear gloves or eye protection, I just minimise prolonged contact and handling (and thus stress for the frags).

 

So, IMO, its super uncommon. But to deny that it ever happens is rather stupid, especially when we have multiple first person accounts - many from well respected reefers etc.

[luvmyacans]

No proof...still...

 

I also removed my last post because it was a little harsh. You guys trash me as much as you want but until you have some proof it's a bunch of nonsense. BTW the rubbing on my eyes was obviously very sarcastic for those of you who didnt pick that up but there's no doubt I've gotten junk in open cuts MANY times with not a single reaction.

[MitchReef]

This is, as previously stated, rally only a concern in certain palythoa varieties. It IS one of the most deadly toxins in the world, however a person has to be susceptable to it for the full effect. I, for one, am not allergic or reactive to much of anything (bee stings, foods, poison ivy, etc) and the palys have never gotten me. I even had a few copper palys (known offenders) squirt me across the face, eyes and into my mouth when cutting with a dremel. No effect. But to somebody else this toxin could have taken them out.

 

Just be aware and use proper protective equipment (unlike I was doing). This hobby can be very dangerous.

[MitchReef]

As for proof, you might want to do a bit of research. Here are three of the first 5 Google hits on "palytoxin". Be aware that these are sourced from VERY credible authorities.

 

http://www2.hawaii.edu/~bemorton/Neuroscie.../Palytoxin.html

 

http://www.pnas.org/content/100/2/386.full

 

http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Palytoxin.html

 

and I quote from Chemical and Biological Weapons Info.com (CBWInfo.com)

"Palytoxin is the most toxic natural product known, it is estimated that the lethal dose for a human is less than five micrograms. Supplies are extremely limited as it is only found at low concentrations in the corals that do contain it, although this may change if a microbial source is found. "

 

I hope this is proof enough.

[MitchReef]

Actually I wanted to add just one more reference, as this one was a bit more direct in its statement.

 

http://ajpcell.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/287/2/C527

 

The disruption to which it refers can also be called death.

[paneubert]

I think a good discussion was started Good job Bulldogpet.

[bulldogpet]

Looks like I opened a can of worms and struck a few nerves... My bad just thought I would contribute a little info for you all to read. Looks like I am a little late.

[MitchReef]

I for one compliment you Bulldog....you shared good info from a reputable source. It has been gone over numerous times, but it still seems that some want to doubt that which many hobbiests, as well as scientists have found.

[franklypre]

I've seen this thread about as many times as the Tang in a nano threads. I don't use gloves never have, and I like keeping tangs in 40 gallon tanks. I may die tomorrow when my order gets here, I'll make sure my wife posts it for ya'll if I do.

[luvmyacans]

Well, thank you Mitch. You did indeed prove how toxic palytoxins are however warning reefers about fragging palys is a little absurd since I haven't heard of any deaths or even trips to the hospital on any boards with any credibility (obviously excludes NR).

 

I've seen this thread about as many times as the Tang in a nano threads. I don't use gloves never have, and I like keeping tangs in 40 gallon tanks. I may die tomorrow when my order gets here, I'll make sure my wife posts it for ya'll if I do.

 

I'm planning on going home and fragging myself to death tonight, beat ya to it!

[MitchReef]

I don't use gloves or glasses either, but I suggest that others do, because sure as can be the first known death would be somebody to whom I suggested they not!!!!

[kdino]

seriously, I commend bulldogpet. though many of you have been members on here for a long time and have seen/heard of this....there are still new people joining everyday. some of whom may not be privy to this information. so who cares if there has been a post about this before, or if you know about it already. no need to bash anyone for trying to help out another individual and using the thread for its purpose...Discussion related to the hobby. i for one use gloves and eye protection to minimize the risk when fragging and handling, and suggest others to do so as well. Happy Reefing!

[dtfleming]

Old news in old

 

Well, thank you Mitch. You did indeed prove how toxic palytoxins are however warning reefers about fragging palys is a little absurd since I haven't heard of any deaths or even trips to the hospital on any boards with any credibility (obviously excludes NR).

 

 

 

I'm planning on going home and fragging myself to death tonight, beat ya to it!

 

 

Ask bshriver on here about how toxic they are. He spent a nice night in the hospital because of palys

[Reefmonster]

Looks like I opened a can of worms and struck a few nerves... My bad just thought I would contribute a little info for you all to read. Looks like I am a little late.

No need to apologize. It was a good post with valuable info that we should all be aware of. Some people just get all uppety when they read things that have been posted before...I guess they think they are the only ones reading the boards. Egocentrism, really...LOL

 

@ luvmyacans...So what you are really saying is that you are going to squeeze your paly tonight? Isn't that like choking your chicken?

[Sword]

99% of what most people will encounter are zoanthids (yes, most Palys in the trade are actually zoas). Palythoas are closely related but are physiologically different. They share a tight, thick mat and the polyps bud off of it with no visible stem/stalk.

 

My Palythoa caribaeorum

[Bonsai]

Everyone in the hobby should know that there is a possibility, likely remote, that they could get hurt fragging zoos/palys. Just be cautious, that's all.

 

Electricity can kill you, as can household cleaners ... there is danger everywhere.

 

Use caution, use gloves and glasses, close your mouth when you frag, and you should fare well.

 

My two cents