Where are they now?, Reef in a teacup Options

[nanoreefnate]

Thats about perfect

hey loungie. just because your older doesnt meant anything. i have the capacity to be just as smart as you. its like saying some humans are not intelligent, when infact, we all are. be it with a disability or not, we all have the capacity to think, and therefore say "i am" (yes i know its statement debated a lot AND that its misquoted but thats what most people recognize)

also I wasn't bragging, that's the other 5000 threads on the web about em lol that I started. This was a response to anothers request for proof of aged picos.

On this particular thread I was *responding to a month's old insult to pico reefs I found when I was following their viral trail across the web. Notice how the original author hasn't come back? Its because she didn't know there is a serious side to small tank science, instead of just the novel type. Most have only seen the novel side so I get pummeled the same way im used to it. It always amazes me that after both vids and high res pics there's still some underlying devastation about to happen to these reef designs. I do like to win em all, that's why I hang around to battle science with you boys I ain't leaving till you are my best bud and willing to get my reefbowl tatted on your lower back inset.

There is not defined science for small reefing. see, you are making up things because there is obiously no specific science to keeping small reefs. No real marine biologist has tanken interest in researching the happenings in small reefs because they can see the unethically of it.
as for your "5000 other post" that you posted to brag about your picos. that clearly shows something about you. also stating that your staying here untill the end also reveals part of your motive.

Define 'thriving' for me please. In my experience, a thriving coral means growing (whether slowly or quickly), reproducing (whether slowly or quickly), and a near constant display of feeding tentacles. If this is not remotely close to your definition, please enlighten me.

Not every system has the same coral growing patterns. Compare any 2 aquariums with similar coral stock and you will see a sharp difference between which corals grow quickly, and which grow slowly.

Let me go out on a limb here; wasn't the idea of keeping an aquatic ecosystem in a glass container once considered an "outside the box" idea? Surely the original reef keeping experiments were "unethical" by our standards. Weren't nano-reefs once considered "outside the box" and "unethical"? Pico-reefs? What about LED lighting? That took someone looking "outside of the box" and realizing that there might be a better lighting solution than metal halides.

The fact that he is a marine biologist has nothing to do with what my point was. I wasn't questioning his knowledge, I just ask that he be open to hands on experience versus assumptions made from glancing at pictures. Scientists are occasionally wrong you know...

Thriving, means that the coral is growing just as it would in the wild. if you have seen any timelapse videos of corals growing you will see that they grow over 6+ inches in a year. in the small system that Mr. Brandon is running they have only grown a few inches in 2 years. like i said before, every animal will grow out of necessity, but that does not mean it is thriving. even Kaiser says "Live Long and Thrive" and Im also going out on a limb here but im pretty sure that means not being sick and growing at a good rate.
also to respond to your statement about the first reefers, the were Romans, that kept small sea anemones in jars of sea water until they died. now of course they did not have the same knowledge of marine life as we did (they also didnt have the same ethical standards as we do today) and they thought that it was fine to keep those anemones there. the term "reefer" is new to the hobby but humans have been keepin marine life captive for many hundreds of years.

lastly Mike himself has had much more first hand experience on the growth of corals than anyone on this forum. he goes to remote islands in the pacific to observe what corals do. im pretty sure none of you have dont that. also... regular people can be wrong too you know

just wanted to add that i saw your tanks on youtube and i was amazed by them before i saw this.

[r3dph03n1x]

Oh and BTW the 15 yr old thing doesn't work on me. thats all the loungies say to me, so it just makes me see that your one of them (except you dont post in the lounge.) meaning you dont care for what i say ONLY because im 15. quite frankly many of the non lounge people enjoy my input and dont just say that "oh your 15 your point isnt valid"...

I believe what he was trying to point out was that you write like a 15 year old, your point may be valid but your delivery is lacking and you depend upon the experience of others to back it up. I, being 19, can kind of understand how this might sound condescending to you.

However;

The greatest sign of maturity is the realization that one is far from it.

...and willing to get my reefbowl tatted on your lower back inset.

Lol, I'll send you pics.


-------------------------------------------------------------


btw;
I wasn't talking about "reefers", read my post, I said "keeping an aquatic ecosystem in a glass container". Since you are such a stickler on 'definitions', shouldn't you realize that killing anemones in pots is different from keeping an sustained ecosystem?

I also wasn't questioning Mike's experience in the field, I was saying that he has never handled Brandon's aquariums and therefore has no experiance with them, he was making deductions and assumptions based off of simple pictures and previous personal opinions. Yes regular people can be wrong as well, that is a given. Are you saying that scientists are not regular people?

just wanted to add that i saw your tanks on youtube and i was amazed by them before i saw this.

What, you were amazed until Mike decided that he disapproved? They call that flip-flopping...

This post has been edited by r3dph03n1x: Nov 8 2009, 01:04 AM

[gabe3eb]

lastly Mike himself has had much more first hand experience on the growth of corals than anyone on this forum. he goes to remote islands in the pacific to observe what corals do. im pretty sure none of you have dont that.

Doesn't mean he can't be dismissive and wrong.

These tanks obviously aren't for everyone (I would never try one myself, based on my skill leve), but they have been shown to work for a long enough period of time for Brandon to prove that they are viable when taken proper care of.

Again, anyone that is trying to refute that is just coming off looking arrogant.

[brandon429]

my two goals are to: inspire first and reach a million view counts second, let me be clear please. I do not have a problem with other's self promotion as long as they can back up what they post, I'll hang around till both you are Mike are satisfied I promise

sad this turned into a flame war. Id rather it be a documentation thread of how nano reefing is defining and refining what is commonplace and easy to digest in the hobby. Nate can we not continue it man if I agree to let you disagree there is no way I can convince you and Mike these are real? I just don't want the thread full of vinegar, wish we could make a rule for a pic only thread and everyone can toss their expertise around only with demostrable proof of the moment...this was a request for pico reefs, yet dudes without pico reefs have trampled it

you guys quit posting if you don't like it I promise not to jack up your threads geeze. And nate your tank is still better than I could have done at age twenty I really respect that about you. Mike, I don't even know you but I'm thinking you are still a little impetuous when it comes to other's life science work in areas you have not specifically studied. If I am wrong, please list your knowledge of what is possible with a reef tank since you reserve the right to set the exclusive boundaries with all your macro reef tank knowledge and a passing glance of observation...sorry to offend. Would a few more pics help or not im just asking

This post has been edited by brandon429: Nov 8 2009, 12:57 AM

[nanoreefnate]

hmm. sounds malicious to me. i havent said anything about you Mr. Gabe. maybe i should. but i wont.
because you sir are the one being malicious and im just stating truths.
also can i see pictures of your reef tank? i would like to see the growth patters of whatever coral you have.

[r3dph03n1x]

...Mike, I don't even know you but I'm thinking you are still a little impetuous when it comes to other's life science work in areas you have not specifically studied. If I am wrong, please list your knowledge of what is possible with a reef tank since you reserve the right to set the exclusive boundaries with all your macro reef tank knowledge and a passing glance of observation...sorry to offend. Would a few more pics help or not im just asking

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA,

That. Is. Epic.

[brandon429]

sorry I started the demand for pics thing Gabe is set nate I swear. Dang it keep pics off unless they are picos jeeze at least keep one element consistent in the postings! I remember gabe helping me in 2002 he's a sage in my book we don't need a tank backup thread sorry i mentioned it.


Nate check this out, the small reefs are helpful to show one:

-the adaptabilities of the reef and various microorganisms. Its not about being mean, once you set the required chemical parameters corals will either grow or they won't, if they do I see it as ethical.

-A tank that has continual airpass like the reefbowl has some ideal redox characters that larger reefs struggle to attain, but you could see that upon second glance right Mike>

-a sealed tank can cause oxygen saturation in situ again in ways a large tank can only hope to achieve, and it can also reinforce the relationship of producers and fixators in the classroom environment, a heck of a lot more eye catching to see it happen live rather than read about it in a book. Before you list how oxygen can be dangerous, I'd refer your back to the acropora shots ranging two years.

-allelopathic studies. For someone to assume there isn't a sensitization gradient would mean they need to do more studies, maybe get a triple degree, or just a few years keeping picos either one will do.

-micro tanks do not have to be tested for any water parameter at any time and do not need additives to grow mad coral other than c balance, so I find it neat to run tanks that are indepedent of drips, dosers, and all the retail back and forth the current hobby promotes.


-topoff causes undue stress to any tank, a sealed one is more stable, you should be thanking me for the idea and spending your time finding a way to do it in a larger tank, now that'd be a revolution

[nanoreefnate]

my two goals are to: inspire first and reach a million view counts second, let me be clear please. I do not have a problem with other's self promotion as long as they can back up what they post, I'll hang around till both you are Mike are satisfied I promise

sad this turned into a flame war. Id rather it be a documentation thread of how nano reefing is defining and refining what is commonplace and easy to digest in the hobby. Nate can we not continue it man if I agree to let you disagree there is no way I can convince you and Mike these are real? I just don't want the thread full of vinegar, wish we could make a rule for a pic only thread and everyone can toss their expertise around only with demostrable proof of the moment...this was a request for pico reefs, yet dudes without pico reefs have trampled it

you guys quit posting if you don't like it I promise not to jack up your threads geeze. And nate your tank is still better than I could have done at age twenty I really respect that about you. Mike, I don't even know you but I'm thinking you are still a little impetuous when it comes to other's life science work in areas you have not specifically studied. If I am wrong, please list your knowledge of what is possible with a reef tank since you reserve the right to set the exclusive boundaries with all your macro reef tank knowledge and a passing glance of observation...sorry to offend. Would a few more pics help or not im just asking

pics? your really want pix...ok fine.
6 months of growth.
This

To this


This

To this


This

To this


This

To this


and if you want a more humane pico reef see this.

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=136990
El Fab's tank has been up for 2 years and he has MUCH more growth than your tank.

FYI stresses are endured by corals in the wild. some Acropora are actually exposed to rain during low tide.

[brandon429]

el fab is a stud good job, but that tank is twice+ my size so I don't compare. There are weight classes for a reason man. He is doing really great things for 2 gallon+ pico reefs and I am happy to watch him become well known he has a natural talent.

I had asked for pics of pico growth, for this pico thread in the gen forum but yes your sps growth is great as I expected. Wish I could have a frag man you have done a great job.

Back to gallon and sub gallon tanks and how they are impossible, unethical and near death we're pretty sure... Im just checking is two gallons considered ethical now this arbitrary/subjective line-in-the-sand gets hard to follow sometimes. You got all happy at 2x my working volume he he and didn't fight for the animal's rights. Apparently El Fab has met Mikes allelopathy expectations as well since Mike hasn't chimed back in with more posits, so now I feel really sure the line of acceptable reef growth is someone in between a half and two gallons by default

This post has been edited by brandon429: Nov 8 2009, 01:37 AM

[Thunderstruck34]

no no drama we dont want no drama

[nanoreefnate]

Weight classes? WTF. sice when were we the UFC?!

[r3dph03n1x]

Weight classes? WTF. sice when were we the UFC?!

Wow. So are you saying that a pico is equivalent to a 180gal? Are the requirements the same? Will the growth patterns be the same? Is the care level the same? Can I expect the same results from both? Are you saying that a fluorescent light bulb will produce the same coral growth as a MH?

This post has been edited by r3dph03n1x: Nov 8 2009, 01:34 AM

[Weetabix7]

Brandon, I have always been really impressed with your Pico/Micro tanks and what you have managed to do with them.
FWIW, I don't think you have manufactured any evidence or claims at all, I think you're the real deal.

I'm curious, can you explain the reasoning behind your sealing of the tanks between maintenance and how you feel they still have adequate oxygen levels?
I'm very interested in this.

[brandon429]

thanks weet


Planted tanks show this phenomena as tiny bubbles produced on the inner surfaces of the tank in the afternoons after photosynthetic oxygen liberation has saturated the water table.
The sealed reef does the same thing, at the same time of the day. THere is no bubble source in the sealed tank as it's only driven with a minijet 14, the bubbles are coming from the fact that the refugium portion of the tank is ~twenty percent of the operable surface area and is pumping oxygen at a faster rate than it is consumed by respirative uptake. There is not enough o2 made to poison the system, or the animals would not be in here year after picture verified year...

Regarding the redox potentials of the bubble vase...many tanks suffer from the condition of too much respiration so they store up CO2 in the water and suffer from pH issues and acidosis. THis would be a marked risk in a small tank, but the continual blending with atmospheric air ensures the reefbowl matches the balance of your ambient room's air chemistry. My living room is breezy and has a forest, the air is clean and co2 free eh
but you have to be careful with air fresheners and cooking fajitas on the stove next to the pcio it'll get pumped right into the water ive seen meat steam get bubbled right out the top of that vase before

This post has been edited by brandon429: Nov 8 2009, 03:14 AM

[Jacobnano]

I like the little tanks

[r3dph03n1x]

I like the little tanks

That's what she sai... Oh, um, never mind...

I do too!

[brandon429]

also along the lines of conditioning/sensitization that pico reef science is contributing to Id like to add it's amazing to me that the corals no longer close up when I play 'for whom the bell tolls' at 120 decibels with double bass so loud it knocks pictures off the wall. That really is neat to me. Any new frag will withdraw fully on the first jam session, but after a week they do not care even when I whip out the slayer and torture them senselessly. Playing dead skin mask that loud in a room with tanks may very well be unethical Im just givin a little challenge they wouldn't normally face in nature in addition to keeping them in a fishbowl

Nate i wouldn't argue w you man chances are we have a lot in common. Mike I was a little shocked at your response I don't disrespect your opinion and backround but with that kind of training I thought you shouldn't one off it w/o a fair discussion, a lil back and forth to show what they can do is lively in any reef discussion. I have been met with that about 10 times though and I see it as one of many polar reactions these things draw. 'Least you can't call em milquetoast eh

This post has been edited by brandon429: Nov 8 2009, 02:27 AM

[jeremai]

and who says metal poisons reef tanks? nate, prolly.

hmm. sounds malicious to me. i havent said anything about you Mr. Gabe. maybe i should. but i wont.
because you sir are the one being malicious and im just stating truths.
also can i see pictures of your reef tank? i would like to see the growth patters of whatever coral you have.

you sound like SDT before the breakup, lol.

look, here's the thing, kid. you're well-read. you have a nice tank. you obviously know what you're doing, and people pick up on that. but you're young, and with that comes a lack of restraint when it comes to defending your views. you often come across as a know-it-all, and people pick up on that, too, only exacerbated by the (perhaps unfortunate) fact that you are only 15.

so, you can either back off with the crazy and just let people do what they do, or you can defend yourself with lounge-style argumentum as hominem and hide behind your grammar and syntax, all the while alienating those you are purportedly trying to help.

up to you. choose wisely.

[Nano sapiens]

This is all quite interesting to me, from the science and techniques behind these min-micro-reefs to the debate about what is ethical and what isn't.

Arguing ethics is like asking for opinions: Everyone has his own, but many can have the same.

I use the standard that if corals are healthy, feeding, growing and reproducing then such an environment can be considered acceptable (regardless of its size).

But, I personally prefer 10g and above reef tanks for the space they provide.





This post has been edited by Nano sapiens: Nov 8 2009, 03:31 AM

[Mike Maddox]

Well, this thread degenerated quickly, and I'm partly to blame; I should have been less blunt with my skepticism. I'm open to success if it's presented to me (although the definition of success can be quite ambiguous), and I've been wrong before in my fifteen years in the hobby. Unfortunately, as many posts in this thread have completely unwarranted personal attack against someone, nothing is getting accomplished. Maturity allows for educational discussions, but alas, this thread is lacking that for the most part.

I've considered closing the thread, but lets see where it goes, and if we can turn it around. However, if I see another personal attack against anyone, it's getting closed, and the offender is getting 7 days' suspension.

Now, to pick up where we left off...

I may be misunderstanding what you have here: from what I understand, you have a few, very small, and completely sealed ecosystems that have thrived for the better part of half a decade - am I wrong? A little clarification, and we'll go from there! I'm sorry if I seemed 'offensive', I didn't mean to. I am the first to say that there are as many ways to run a successful reef tank as their are successful reef tanks, so tell me exactly what you did, how you did it, and how long you've had it, and prove me wrong! As you probably know, most attempts at stable, long term, sealed ecosystems (of any type, by anyone) have met with failure, and all I was able to find were pics from 2003, hence my skepticism. Don't worry, I can and will admit to being completely wrong if I am!

To be fair to me, you don't know what kind of aquariums I have. I have very off-the-wall aquariums: a lagoon biotope nano that is planted with about a dozen species of macroalgaes, seagrasses, and 'seaweeds', some of it growing out of the tank, and large 'FOWLR' (mostly full of various oyster, scallop, and tunicate species, as well as my moray eels). I'd call my systems as close to atypical as yours obviously are. I tend to shy away from the 'cookie cutter' type systems as well, not to say that a 'typical' reef aquarium is a bad thing.

Ethics are a tricky thing, and you're right about there being no clear line. I tend to take how a tank is stocked into account for this issue, rather than its size. El Fab (from what I've seen, and it's not much) seems to avoid some of the more aggressive coral in his tanks. It wasn't the size, more the fact that (from what I understand) your tanks are completely sealed?

Nate, I appreciate your support, but being a marine biologist doesn't teach me much (anything?) about maintaining aquariums. Sure I know a lot about biology, biochem, and anatomy (and research...ugh), but being a marine biologist doesn't make me a good aquarist. Years and years of experience, reading, and effort did that (I hope!). We know you're smart, and I know you can write a decently worded post, so lets see it!

Anyway, let's share some info!