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Training & Feeding a Mandarin


Khayman

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:welcome: everyone and thankyou for stopping by.

I would like to start by stating this in not my idea solely but I did contribute and so did many others. Though some do not know they have contributed. This has tested and it works very well. Just remember you need to seed with pods. Either out of a healthy refugium or you can buy them.

 

This first section is quoted form "aka_BigRed" from Reef Sanctuary forums. It is very odd that he and myself came up with the exact same idea. I seen no point in retyping what he already did.

 

I have a Mandarin Dragonet and I was building some pod piles of live-rock rubble when I was thinking. It would be nice if these piles were easier to move (for cleaning maintenance, etc). Then I decided to make mobile Pod Condos - You can move them around your tank, easily and still provide a sanctuary for pod population to reproduce within. It also allows you to make a couple and rotate them between your display tank, and another pod-rich environment such as a refugium to increase the number of little pod tenants.

 

They are very simple and cheap to make:

 

 

 

Materials

Gutter Guard - Sold at Menards/Lowes/HD in about 20' rolls for a few bucks

 

10 or so zip-ties (smaller are better IMO)

 

Some live rock rubble

post-39211-1232119249.jpg

 

 

 

Step 1 - Make the body

Cut about 1 foot of gutter guard and roll it into a cylinder. You could actually make them any size you like but this size worked well in my tank - adjust as you like. Overlap about 3 squares on the end. Use zip ties and secure the overlapped layers every couple squares using the middle row of full squares for best strength.

post-39211-1232119286.jpg

 

 

Step 2 - Put on the bottom

Next cut a smaller piece of gutter guard that is large enough to cover the end of the tube with a couple squares of over hang. Position the bottom on the body so that you get good matching of the full squares of the body edge with the top. It's hard to see in the pics, but you want to zip tie anchor using full, uncut squares. Again, zip tie every couple squares

post-39211-1232119254.jpgpost-39211-1232119258.jpg

 

Step 3 - Trim the bottom

Trim the bottom to fit the tube body with a scissors - being careful not to cut the anchor squares so that it compromises the bottom's structural integrity. Here it is pre and post trimmed:

post-39211-1232119262.jpgpost-39211-1232119266.jpg

 

 

Step 4 - Fill'er Up with rubble

Now you're ready to fill it up with LR rubble, etc. This is the habitat for your pods, so I tried to fill mine up nice and dense so they have more space to run around, hide, lay eggs, etc. You may have to do some puzzle work to maximize the fill, but do it to your liking. Don't fill it completely to the top only go about 80% full - leaving about 1 1/2 inch or so unfilled. This will allow you to pinch the two sides together an close the top to keep the rubble from falling out.

post-39211-1232119274.jpg

 

Step 5 - Close the top

Now pinch the top together and use a couple zip ties to close it. I found it best to put the body seam perpendicular to the top pinch line so it looks nice and isn't as hard on the side seam.

post-39211-1232119277.jpgpost-39211-1232119281.jpg

 

Edit

I chose to repeat Step 2 for thisstep. I find it looks muck more finished and clean.

 

That's all there is. As I said, now you have mobile Pod breeding grounds. You could also loan them out to others to plop in their sump/fuge for a couple weeks to cross-populate your tank with pod species from their system, etc

 

Also you can purchase this.

Zoo2 Tigriopus californicus 8oz. It is about $20-$30

post-39211-1232122319_thumb.jpg

 

It injects thousands if not millions of Tigriopus califonicus copepod in one batch of product. These guys “are a large copepod best suited as a direct feed item. Perfect for feeding mandarin gobies, pipefish, and some species of anthias. This will get you started very nicely. Just remember a healthy Mandarin will consume the batch in a couple weeks to a month if you do not have them breeding.

 

I hope this will help some of you out there.

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Training

 

This section I have titles training. These beautiful animals can be trained to consume frozen and high quality flake foods. For frozen I recomend "Brine & Mysis shrimp" combine som liquid garlic too the mix. The garlic adds some needed vitemins to help prevent sickness and they seem to really like it. This mixture should be places in the tank in your Mandrans favorite hunting grounds. This area is easy to determine they will tend to hang out and often be picking at that area alot.

 

Initially they will take the frozen by mistake. This is a good sign. If they take it in there mouth and spit it out the same peice several time, this however does not mean they are eating yet. A Mandarin does not eat by chewing and spiting and rechewing. When a Mandarin is feeding it grabs chews a couple times and swallows. You will have to watch closely.

 

Flake

As for flakes it is the same prosess. First get the Mandarine accepting frozen, see above. Then compine the flakes to the mixture. The Mandarine will aacept the flakes is the same way that it took the frozen. This process could take weeks if not months to acheive so be very patient.

 

While you are training and even after you should make sure you have live Pods in your tank. This type of feed is a supplement not a primary food souce.

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HecticDialectics

The best I can tell from your tank thread is that you have owned a mandarin for no more than 3 weeks, and potentially even less. You really shouldn't be making a thread talking about mandarin care given your history...

 

You used to own a scooter blenny just a few weeks ago that has since died because it "got stuck between the tank and some rock".

 

Let me just be frank... no. Fish do not "get stuck". It died because it didn't have enough food and starved to death. Then its body, as it was floating around dying, got stuck. And since the fish was dying it didn't have the strength to swim any more, and it got stuck where the current took it.

 

Your mandarin is likely to face the same exact fate if your only answer is some BS 3x3" sack of rock.

 

How many hundreds... even tens of pods do you really expect to "breed" every day using a little sack of rock?

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The best I can tell from your tank thread is that you have owned a mandarin for no more than 3 weeks, and potentially even less. You really shouldn't be making a thread talking about mandarin care given your history...

 

You used to own a scooter blenny just a few weeks ago that has since died because it "got stuck between the tank and some rock".

 

Let me just be frank... no. Fish do not "get stuck". It died because it didn't have enough food and starved to death. Then its body, as it was floating around dying, got stuck. And since the fish was dying it didn't have the strength to swim any more, and it got stuck where the current took it.

 

Your mandarin is likely to face the same exact fate if your only answer is some BS 3x3" sack of rock.

 

How many hundreds... even tens of pods do you really expect to "breed" every day using a little sack of rock?

 

Ok first of all you come off very rude.

 

Now as stated this was not my idea. It came to me from a person on another thread that I know. If you even took the time to read it you would have seen that. Also as the instructions are put this little apperatus does need to be seeded to work properly. I put this here for people that are looking for ways to keep these fish and are willing to try what is needed in order for them to survive. The authur "aka_BigRed" has kept mandarines in this way for over a year now.

 

Also as for the traininf techniques they do work. We have a local breeder in my area that very sucessfully trains Dragonetts to eat frozen and flake in this manner.

 

Next time before you critisize you should perhaps read the object of you critisisms. Also as too the fact that fish do not get stuck. You have no idea how my tank was set up. He did get stuck between the glass and the rock work. "Scooter" as I called him was a very active and a very good eater. He unfortunatley like to go into any and all caves. The one he got stuck in had an odd twist in it where no current could have possibly put him. That is unless current can now navigate stright down, then up at about 45 degrees, and then stright up. It took me a bit of time to get his little body out.

 

 

I do accept critisism and welcome it, so long as it is given in an educated manner. Yours was not. Next time you critisize please do so in an educated manner. So in closeing as I am sure your Mother told you growing up. "If you have nothing good to say. Say nothing at all."

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HecticDialectics

Oh I could be a lot more rude than that :lol:

 

I just felt it was important to put it all in perspective.

 

So in closeing as I am sure your Mother told you growing up. "If you have nothing good to say. Say nothing at all."

 

That's such a weak and pathetic saying. I'm glad to say my mother never told me that. It doesn't hurt to get a little criticism every now and then instead of sailing through life blind thinking you're doing it all great.

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Oh I could be a lot more rude than that :lol:

 

I just felt it was important to put it all in perspective.

 

 

 

That's such a weak and pathetic saying. I'm glad to say my mother never told me that. It doesn't hurt to get a little criticism every now and then instead of sailing through life blind thinking you're doing it all great.

 

Ok HecticDialectics

 

Criticism is always accepted. If you are going to make off hand criticisms’ back them up. How about saying I disagree with you. Then offer up what you would suggest instead. Atleast then people would look at you in a more educated light. Also perhaps what you would suggest would be a better idea and therefore help people.

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HecticDialectics

Your best bet to save the mandarin from the same fate the scooter blenny suffered is to try and train it to eat frozen food. A little 3x3" sack of rock is just not going to provide hundreds upon hundreds of pods for the mandarin to eat every week. If you search the forums for a bit, you'll find some good threads on training mandarins to eat frozen food. SeeDemTails has some method that seems to work ok and she's helped out quite a few people with it.

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How long have you kept a mandarin?

You guys are dead on. This idea is silly. It will only be a matter of time before they starve if this is the only way you are going to try to feed them. I have a 34 g Cadlights that has had a mandarin thriving for over 14 months. This is due to the fact that it is an established tank (2 yrs) and has a fuge full of pods. I am also lucky enough that he feeds on fronzen foods as well when he can beat my six-line to it. If I have been reading your thread correctly Khaman isn't rour tank just over a month old? That is not good.

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while it isn't recommended for small tanks to house mandarins (and similar types), i'm not one to say it can't be done. it just simply isn't recommendable to a beginner as the work required to maintain one is considerable.

 

i'm talking from the viewpoint where some beginners don't even like to do weekly waterchanges, regular maintenance, or really shell out money for a good whatever. short-cuts usually end up badly, especially if one is not used to taking the long-route already. i.e. if you know what you're doing because you've done it a number of different ways and for a decent amount of time, then you have a good chance to adjust that methodology to a 'short-cut' imo.

 

there's been a couple of people that have successfully kept mandarins using flake/pellets/frozen. and of course, many opt for expensive or labor-intensive live microfoods. but is that the norm for mandarins? not really.

 

but they can be kept, frankly i equate them to "easy seahorses", i.e. mandarins are easier than seahorse imo. there are many successful beginners of seahorsing, i don't see why that can't be applied to mandarins.

 

the problem is more likely that beginners don't realize mandarin do share a lot of the same requirements as seahorses, e.g. species-tank, lower flow, preferably live, species-appropriate and size-appropriate foods.

 

khay needs to see that (i think he's heard it), i don't see a need to bash him though. he seems like he's thinking it thru. i'd opt for a very plain LFS/empty tank first though. that way target feeding/training is much easier. then slowly build the tank around it while weaning off to prepared foods. jmo.

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kamikaze_fish

I know I'm new, but you are all being fairly rude and cruel about this. To me it sounds like this would be an excellent way to supplement the mandarin. Maybe put your heads together to help find a better way to resolve this than to attack the author. He even gave credit that the idea wasn't his, so why are you attacking him? He just put the info in a more understandable, easier to find format.

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oh here we go....<_<

 

 

 

i like the training section...it made me lulz. it basically says: "feed it mysis until it actually eats it..." thats it? feed it mysis, and if it spits the shrimp out, its not trained yet?

 

 

go die in a rock noob.

 

edit: oh wait...i forgot that you removed any blame from urself by plagiarizing someone else...GREAT idea.

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fwiw...i target feed my mandarin brine/mysis mixed (in a pipette)...and i toss a cube of frozen rotifers into the fuge evry 2 days to feed the pod population. i also have numerous spaces for the pods to live, out of reach of my mandarin. (no theyre not 3x3 bags of rubble...my pods live in real rock structures in my tank and fuge.)

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Hey Khayman hope your Mandarin is still alive, I'm not trying to be impolite but your training methods is not appropriate, like prismo_reefer said just telling people to squirt food (pollution) at its hunting spot till he eats and if he spits it out he is not eating, is not really explaining anything at all. It is quite irresponsible too, as some beginners (who usually do not have a clue about what they are doing) will just pollute their tanks trying your method, and hope that their mandarin will be train.

 

Also you said at the very beginning that this method was created by yourself with some other people, so try not to excuse yourself that much. Now if it was created by aka_BigRed please give us a link of the original method so we can see by ourself and perhaps get some more info from a more experience reefer. I did search his nick in the forum that you mention but it failed, the moderator said that he/she does not exist. Now as I was saying we need an experience reefer because when you post something like this, you will have to help and answer any beginner who is willing to try it, and if you are not an experience reefer how do you plan to give the correct feedback when needed.

 

For example if a beginner is trying the method, but his mandarin is not eating and the pods population is running out for whatever reason, now they will just come back to ask for your help, but you do not have an appropiate answer since you have barely work on this method or implemented it with more than one fish, maybe your fish was willing to go for the frozen foods from the very beginning.

 

Now I will thank you for your topic because it will always bring reefers with experience and let us know some good info.

 

Now from my own experience, which is fairly new for nano tanks (is been only 8 months for small tanks, I do have a bigger tank that is 2 years old). I have done my own research and from my understanding a Mandarin to live only on pods, will need about a bottle of pods per week. So training is a must especially for a small tank.

 

Here is a link to a very good method, which I'm using now and I'm having great success within the first week of training. My mandarin is eating the FBS and is looking good for now, but time will tell:

 

http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1217 (This is the training method, ask mpedersen for any help with this method he will answer any questions in no time.)

 

Here is another link from a quite new but famous breeder Matthew L. Wittenrich (he has work on 3 different books and working on a 4th), He uses this method on his breeding Mandarins as well as the babies mandarins, now remember this guys are expert so it is easier for them to have success using this methods.

 

http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1963 (An excellent breeder that can help you and is willing to do so)

 

Now hope that this will actually help some reefers :D .

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For example if a beginner is trying the method, but his mandarin is not eating and the pods population is running out for whatever reason, now they will just come back to ask for your help, but you do not have an appropiate answer since you have barely work on this method or implemented it with more than one fish, maybe your fish was willing to go for the frozen foods from the very beginning.

 

Now I will thank you for your topic because it will always bring reefers with experience and let us know some good info.

THIS!

 

Excellent post, Kozo. I agree with the above statements entirely.

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oh here we go....<_<

 

 

 

i like the training section...it made me lulz. it basically says: "feed it mysis until it actually eats it..." thats it? feed it mysis, and if it spits the shrimp out, its not trained yet?

 

 

go die in a rock noob.

 

edit: oh wait...i forgot that you removed any blame from urself by plagiarizing someone else...GREAT idea.

 

Hmm yet another uneducated reply. You see my mandarine is eating frozen and I do have Copods and anthropods being supplimented to my tank. Also the apparatus that I showed above does work. If you would have taken the time to do even a little reseach instead of being a ignorant nay sayer with no educated response, you would have already red that information. Also the Mandarine in question was trained by the breeder then sold to my LFS. After that we kept him at my LFS for a period of two weeks in her own tank to be sure she was eating and also what she prefered. The Mandarine in questions eats Mysis, Brine, and Daphnia frozen shrimp. Though she by far prefers the Brine and Daphnia. Also of course she still eats the pods.

 

I did do alot of research before bringing her home. Even right down to the sex. Females have a higher probibility of success when eating supplimented foods. I have also provided my Cube with as many caves as possible for her to explore.

 

So as I thank you for your responce and for posting. I would request that next time please take the time to atlease read the whole original post or maybe even the whole thread.

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Hmm yet another uneducated reply.
mandarine

Copods

anthropods

supplimented

mandarine

red

Mandarine

prefered

Mandarine

prefers

probibility

supplimented

responce

atlease

 

You're quite educated yourself, good sir.

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Hey Khayman hope your Mandarin is still alive, I'm not trying to be impolite but your training methods is not appropriate, like prismo_reefer said just telling people to squirt food (pollution) at its hunting spot till he eats and if he spits it out he is not eating, is not really explaining anything at all. It is quite irresponsible too, as some beginners (who usually do not have a clue about what they are doing) will just pollute their tanks trying your method, and hope that their mandarin will be train.

 

Also you said at the very beginning that this method was created by yourself with some other people, so try not to excuse yourself that much. Now if it was created by aka_BigRed please give us a link of the original method so we can see by ourself and perhaps get some more info from a more experience reefer. I did search his nick in the forum that you mention but it failed, the moderator said that he/she does not exist. Now as I was saying we need an experience reefer because when you post something like this, you will have to help and answer any beginner who is willing to try it, and if you are not an experience reefer how do you plan to give the correct feedback when needed.

 

For example if a beginner is trying the method, but his mandarin is not eating and the pods population is running out for whatever reason, now they will just come back to ask for your help, but you do not have an appropiate answer since you have barely work on this method or implemented it with more than one fish, maybe your fish was willing to go for the frozen foods from the very beginning.

 

Now I will thank you for your topic because it will always bring reefers with experience and let us know some good info.

 

Now from my own experience, which is fairly new for nano tanks (is been only 8 months for small tanks, I do have a bigger tank that is 2 years old). I have done my own research and from my understanding a Mandarin to live only on pods, will need about a bottle of pods per week. So training is a must especially for a small tank.

 

Here is a link to a very good method, which I'm using now and I'm having great success within the first week of training. My mandarin is eating the FBS and is looking good for now, but time will tell:

 

http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1217 (This is the training method, ask mpedersen for any help with this method he will answer any questions in no time.)

 

Here is another link from a quite new but famous breeder Matthew L. Wittenrich (he has work on 3 different books and working on a 4th), He uses this method on his breeding Mandarins as well as the babies mandarins, now remember this guys are expert so it is easier for them to have success using this methods.

 

http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1963 (An excellent breeder that can help you and is willing to do so)

 

Now hope that this will actually help some reefers :D .

 

Here is the link.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthre...hreadid=1017583

 

Also I do have alot of compiled information for mandarines. I do not purchase anything for my tank I do not research. The only exception is a accidental coral. I have asked several people on here about. So far I have gotten no responcse.

 

Thank you for all your comments. As i said aboove I am feeding pods as well. the bottles are about $20.00 and should last about 1-2 weeks per bottle. I have aslo started pod cultures to rais the food souce as well. Do you have any advise on raising pods?

Should I connect to pod tank directly to my tank?

If so how would I do this?

Where should the intake and outtake lines be put, in the back area?

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while it isn't recommended for small tanks to house mandarins (and similar types), i'm not one to say it can't be done. it just simply isn't recommendable to a beginner as the work required to maintain one is considerable.

 

i'm talking from the viewpoint where some beginners don't even like to do weekly waterchanges, regular maintenance, or really shell out money for a good whatever. short-cuts usually end up badly, especially if one is not used to taking the long-route already. i.e. if you know what you're doing because you've done it a number of different ways and for a decent amount of time, then you have a good chance to adjust that methodology to a 'short-cut' imo.

 

there's been a couple of people that have successfully kept mandarins using flake/pellets/frozen. and of course, many opt for expensive or labor-intensive live microfoods. but is that the norm for mandarins? not really.

 

but they can be kept, frankly i equate them to "easy seahorses", i.e. mandarins are easier than seahorse imo. there are many successful beginners of seahorsing, i don't see why that can't be applied to mandarins.

 

the problem is more likely that beginners don't realize mandarin do share a lot of the same requirements as seahorses, e.g. species-tank, lower flow, preferably live, species-appropriate and size-appropriate foods.

 

khay needs to see that (i think he's heard it), i don't see a need to bash him though. he seems like he's thinking it thru. i'd opt for a very plain LFS/empty tank first though. that way target feeding/training is much easier. then slowly build the tank around it while weaning off to prepared foods. jmo.

 

Thank you Tinyreef for you response

 

I do try to educate myself as much as possible before I purchase anything for my tank. Though I am fairly new to marine fish keeping in practice myself. I have had a fair bit of experience through my friends and family. Before I even started I read alot of books, forums and many articles on this hobby. I do have alot of information and, fair amount of people that help me in any of my decisions.

 

Originally I wanted to keep sea horses. After months of research into them I did decide the risk and the cost was too high. In my research however I learned about dragonets and found they would be easier to keep than a seahorse. Though my tank is only a 24G I have tried to prepare for a mandarine. I do realize that there is a fairly high mortality rate in keeping these animals. I am however willing to take that risk. My LFS is in direct contact with a breeder he buys from. They guarantee that their Mandarines and other dragonets do eat supplemented foods. Though they do state they still need either pods or live brine as well. I have setup my cultures and for the pods and brine. Also until they are producing properly I am buying bottled copods to add to my tank to insure the dietary needs are met for my little fish.

 

On another note

 

I hope you sunlight pico for clams is doing well in these winter months. Also do you have any pictures of any of your other tanks? I think you mentioned you have a larger display tank as well.

 

I am currently building a setup for a 120 gallon. It will be a few months before it is ready, maybe longer.

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You're quite educated yourself, good sir.

 

Hello BKtomodachi

 

Thank you for your comment. I do try and to educate myself. I am sorry if I come off rude at times to some people. It does upset me though when people criticize when the obviously have no experience in whet they are criticizing. Or if they do have experience they do not use it in a proper rebuttal to what I have posted.

 

I will say the apparatus does seem to work. You do as I am sure you read have to seed it, so you would need a ready supply of pods to add to it.

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OOO, I am so in on this.

 

 

How do you purpose that a small area of LR rubble that the mandarin can not readily access is capable of sustained copepod production for an extended period of time? Also pods are animals and like any other animal they require food to survive and reproduce. If you expecting enough population growth to sustain both the mandarin and the parent population then where to the pods get their food from?

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HecticDialectics
I am sorry if I come off rude at times to some people. It does upset me though when people criticize when the obviously have no experience in whet they are criticizing. Or if they do have experience they do not use it in a proper rebuttal to what I have posted.

 

 

To be fair, you have owned a mandarin for what? Two? Three weeks? And you made a thread about training and feeding a mandarin... and you haven't even been successful in training and feeding a mandarin...

 

You are pretty much asking for it...

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